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Last orders: The death of the pub?



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Published Date: 28 July 2008
THE traditional local pub is facing an "unprecedented threat" from soaring costs and stay-at-home drinkers, experts have warned, as a new report reveals beer sales in bars have fallen to their lowest level since the Great Depression.
Figures published today by the British Beer and Pub Association (BBPA) reveal beer sales in UK pubs fell 10.6 per cent in the past year.

Some 107 million fewer pints were sold between April and June this year than in the same period last year – a fall of 1.2 million pints a day.

The news follows estimates that as many as 350 pubs have closed in Scotland in the past two years, and has brought predictions of the "death" of traditional pubs across the country.

Shrinking consumer demand as a result of the credit crunch and cheap alcohol in supermarkets, plus rising taxes and licence fees and the smoking ban, have all been blamed for the downturn in the pub trade.

Ian Brocklebank, a director of the Campaign for Real Ale (Camra), said the growing gap in the price of alcohol between pubs and supermarkets was driving an increasing number of publicans out of business.

"There's no doubt the threat faced by traditional pubs is unprecedented, and it's a threat we are taking very seriously indeed," said Mr Brocklebank.

"The big price differential between supermarkets and pubs is a massive problem. Supermarkets are able to sell alcohol at almost loss-leader prices – there's no way pubs can do that."

Camra is now lobbying Westminster to ease the financial burden on publicans to help them to tempt drinkers back.

"There are issues that we are raising with the government around beer tax and the possibility of making locally-brewed ales exempt from VAT," Mr Brocklebank said.

"There are several local campaigns to keep the traditional British pub, but what we are lacking is a national approach."

He said gloomy predictions of the death of the local pub were not wide of the mark.

"I think it's already happening for many rural communities," he said. "We are seeing the death of the traditional local in some places. When a community pub closes down, what do people end up with? A holiday home. What benefit do people get from that?"

His comments appear to be backed up by the figures. According to the BBPA, 27 pubs a week shut up shop last year. That is the equivalent of four a day and a rate of closure seven times faster than in 2006 and 14 times faster than 2005.

Figures from Camra, meanwhile, suggest that 57 pubs are closing every month. There are just over 57,000 pubs in Britain today, compared with 69,000 in 1980.

Charles Pease, the owner of the Kinloch Hotel on Mull, is threatening to relinquish his drinks licence because of soaring fees – meaning his locals could face a 24-mile round trip for a drink.

He says it will cost him thousands of pounds to meet licence costs and comply with the need for training courses and a premises plan under new licensing laws, a heavy burden for a small business.

The Scottish Government says the Licensing (Scotland) 2005 Act, which will be fully operational by autumn 2009, aims to address under-age drinking and binge drinking by introducing a detailed premises licence to existing establishments.

But Mr Pease said: "It is nothing more than a cash cow for local government and an ill-considered burden that, should recession and decline in trade be an issue, will find more than several small enterprises electing not to renew their licences in the coming months.

"The last time I renewed my licence for the Kinloch Hotel, it cost me £93 for three years. But the licence is going up from £31 a year to £220 a year, and in the first year there are additional costs, which mean the business would be paying something like £2,500 to £3,000."

Colin Wilkinson, secretary of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association (SLTA), said a multitude of factors were combining to turn the screw on pubs.

He said: "About 400 pubs have closed since the introduction of the smoking ban, but it's not just down to that. We have things like the rents, rates and fuel costs.

"But the main thing I would say is the price of alcohol in supermarkets. We have become a nation of take-home drinkers in Scotland, where we consume cheap alcohol from the big retailers. There are 759 supermarkets in Scotland, and they take 45 per cent of all alcohol sales in the country."

According to the BBPA, beer sales in supermarkets and shops are continuing to rise, with a 3.8 per cent increase compared with the same quarter last year.

Steve Mudie, president of the SLTA, added: "This is undoubtedly an extremely serious issue for the industry."

John Barclay, the secretary of Fife Licensed Trade Association, said he knew of a string of pubs that had closed in recent times.

"The price of beer in supermarkets is getting cheaper and cheaper. There's very little the pubs can do," he said.

Rob Hayward, the BBPA's chief executive, said: "Beer sales in pubs are now at their lowest level since the Great Depression of the 1930s – down seven million pints a day from the height of the market in 1979.

"We need a change of approach from the government. Brewing is a major industry, beer our national drink and pubs a treasured part of our national culture.

"Yet with further duty increases planned, the Treasury continues to see the brewing industry as a cash cow to be milked in future budgets. These falling tax revenues show that it's time for a rethink."



The full article contains 963 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Mr A Roy,

28/07/2008 00:24:56
I've not been in a pub or my local club since the start of the smoking ban, Funny how we were all told that pubs would have more patrons when the ban was introduced. Nice one Nu-Labour.
Look like the only Nu-labour voters left will be the members of ASH
2

2dogs in D.C.,

28/07/2008 00:43:25
Mr.Roy- That was my 1st thought,also.
3

,

28/07/2008 00:46:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
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4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 00:54:43

'HA HA HA HA' WHAT DID I TELL YOU ALL, WELL OVER A YEAR AGO ON THESE THREADS,?

THE PUBS WOULD DIE A DEATH!

AND 'AGAIN' I AM CORRECT!

NOW SOME MAY 'LISTEN' AND TAKE WHAT I SAY AS SERIOUS!
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 00:57:45

Here is a 'Link' to one of my predictions about this in this very paper, take a 'neb',....

http://business.scotsman.com/fooddrinkagriculture/4-pint-predicted-as-price.3590583.jp
6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 01:06:32

Another Earlier Prediction, my comment 121, on this Scotsman News Thread,...

http://business.scotsman.com/scottishandnewcastle/Ban-on-smoking-to-cost.3348234.jp
7

Allan(handofgod137),

28/07/2008 01:13:23
Yep, smoking ban.
8

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 01:14:32
Charles,

Partially right. These are national figures. It would be interesting to find out what the rate of closure was in the first year after the smoking ban in Scotland compared to the second year.

I suspect this is mainly down to the credit crunch and cheap booze in the supermarkets rather than the smoking ban. All the smokers I know still go out as often as they ever did. Have you not noticed that it's only been in the last few months that pubs have started going out of business in Edinburgh?
9

Continental,

28/07/2008 01:17:49
#1 - you can't blame Labour on the smoking ban, it was introduced to Parliament by Stewart Maxwell, the current Minister for Communities and Sport
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 01:23:33

Allan ~7,

Correct!!
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 01:28:11

Julian ~8,

Not Correct! the economic climate has nothing to do with, sales for the "Pubs"

Legislation takes time to 'kick in' to have the overall effects.

My Educated Prediction was true!
12

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 01:52:10
Charles,

If your mortgage, utility, food and fuel bills are going through the roof don't you think some people might cut back a few pints in the week? Every day we see people being interviewed on the news saying they are cutting back on this and that.

As for legislation taking time to have an effect, the figures in the above article show that pubs in the whole of GB have only started closing in the last year. The smoking ban in England only started late last year. If it takes time to have an effect why are they closing already?

As I said, it would be interesting to see the sales figures for pubs in Scotland in the first and second years following the ban. Does anyone know what they are?

13

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 02:02:32

Julian ~12,

You are trying to make 'justifications' for the demise of the Great British Pubs!

The 'Truth' IS, 'THE PUB' was for the 'Working Men'

'A PIE, A PINT, A FAG' A CHAT'!

All four went together, to keep 'Pubs Alive' I suspect in the days of War and previous Depressions!

Two World wars and numerous Depression's, The Pubs Survived!

The 'NAIL IN THE COFFIN' IS DUE TO ONE FACT!

AND ONE 'FACT' ONLY!!

'THE SMOKING BAN'!
14

Vandala,

28/07/2008 02:18:46
Ummm...my local pub is packed seven nights a week with generally nice people. In fact I'm just back from there now. Death of the cr*p pub more like...
15

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 02:34:43
Charles,

So the smoking ban is only one of the nails. I agree, but it's probably not the final one. Lack of disposable income is surely reponsible for that.

But as I say, let's settle the argument. If you say it's all down to the smoking ban then pub sales fwould have plummeted after March 2006 in Scotland and stayed at that level ever since. Let's have the figures.

#14 makes a good point. Those pubs that have folded were pretty mediocre anyway.
16

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 02:42:19
Charles,

Don't listen to me, hear it from the horses mouth:-

http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp?sectioncode=7&storycode=60308&c=1

In summary, what it says is

(1) The smoking ban has had an effect but the credit crunch is a bigger influence.
(2) 76% of the public support the ban.
(3) Of 1500 publicans surveyed, 64% support the ban.
17

Maisie from Morningside,

28/07/2008 02:44:37
Businesses in the hospitality area don't just fold overnight.
I too suspect the smoking ban as the main culprit, the recent economic downturn is merely the last nail in the coffin.
It's a pity the pub workers were promised a healthier working environment- instead they've got NO working environment!
18

Guga II,

Rockall 28/07/2008 02:47:24
Apart from the smoking ban, and the refusal of the government to allow people freedom of choice, are not most of the pubs owned by breweries? That being the case, they could easily drop their prices to compete with supermarkets.
19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 02:47:41

Maisie ~17,

What you speak, IS the uppermost Truth!
20

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 02:52:02


Five 'Pints' For £5.00 in the warmth of you Home, and have that 'Fag' when ever you want, without having to be 'religated' out to the, 'Freezing Cold'!

WHICH ON WOULD YOU CHOOSE,?

ONE DOES NOT NEED TO BE AN 'IDIOT'! TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION!
21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 02:57:21

OR in the, 'NOW' PUBS!

£20.00 FOR FIVE 'PINTS',..

And get 'Thrown Outside' For a 'Fag' and to suffer,..

'Frost Bite',...??

'GET REAL'

THE BRITISH PUBLIC, HAVE, "GOT REAL", HENCE,..

THE DEATH OF THE PUBS!!
22

bring them on,

28/07/2008 03:18:34
Pubs need a new image, and make it more than just having a few pints.
23

Statsman,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 03:40:29
I stopped going to pubs when the Nazi smoking ban came in. I can smoke at home and the Stasi police state can't touch me. I'd rather do that than the state humiliate me like a child just because I am an honest tax paying citizen that likes a cigarette.

Nu Labour can get lost.
24

Statsman,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 03:42:24
16 Julian

Carry on Lord Haw Haw.
25

,

28/07/2008 03:46:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

Statsman,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 03:47:17
21 Charles Linskaill

You are quite right. Adults being treated like children is not a recipe for success. It should be remembered that people go to the pub to escape their working lives. If their pubs turn out to be regulated work environments, it kills any pretence of escapism.
27

,

28/07/2008 03:49:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

Statsman,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 04:01:00
The whole smoking ban is built on a lie. It is an evil abuse of science and more correctly, statistics. If anyone believe passive smoking is risky based on the evidence, then they would, by logic, be trying to ban whole milk and mouthwash since the 'link' with lung cancer is at least two times higher.

It is a testament to fascism and the pointlessness of the likes of freedom hater Maureen Moore that we are here. She lied and lied and lied until Nu Labour took her seriously. Her husband died so we all have to suffer. What a petty sad individual.
29

peter e,

usa 28/07/2008 04:01:02
See my comments about your fight to stop a bloke from CARRYING A knife. I told you when you have to have big brother protect you from a guy with a knife, you loose your manhood. So then Big Brother taxes the hell out of pubs, (they serve stuff with ALCOHOL in it), and stop some creep that shouldn't be in a pub in the first place, from second hand smoke, by banning smoking.

Well, what do you expect.

Scotland is no fun anymore.
30

Paul in Oz,

Helensburgh 28/07/2008 04:42:29
Oh well pubs are going to have flat sales until the younger generation (who don't grow up with cigarettes thrust upon them in public places) start frequenting the pubs of Scotland and the oldies die off because of lung cancer

Good riddance I say!

Just to get back to it those who think smoking in a place where food is sold is acceptable, you are disgusting and don't deserve to be let out in public!
31

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 04:52:31
Charles,

A bit melodramatic don't you think. Death of the pubs? I walk out my front door and within a few minutes see dozens of pubs doing a thriving trade. A few pubs have gone to the wall as a result of the smoking ban. Well so what. A few thousand are still happily open for business every day in the streets of Edinburgh.
32

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 04:57:14
statsman,

Wasn't Lord Haw Haw a propogandist who made claims without any credible source to back them up?
33

Robert Cassidy,

Denver Colorado 28/07/2008 05:40:54
The basic factor ailing the pubs applies to the whole UK.....TAX !.....Taxes are destroying the UK...Most taxes and most laws should be abolished..If the vast and ostentatious wealth of the Royal family were confiscated by way of replacement , the people of Britain would be free of confiscatory and oppressive tax burdens
Oil royalties alone would suffice to provide the people of an independent Scottish Republic with unlimited free beer .( provided illegal immigration from Ireland were adequately controlled !
34

Anonym,

28/07/2008 06:08:08
#25 OPINION - you are a chump.

#30 The smoking ban also prevents smoking in places where food is NOT sold. Reasonable?

#33 The Royal Family do not cost the UK much at all. What you call their 'ostentatious wealth' probably would not pay for 10 minutes of tax relief for the UK.
35

Rabhairt,

Cannons Creek AUSTRALIA 28/07/2008 06:28:38
The death of the UK pubs would be a tragedy, my 30 year old son returned recently from the Uk and absolutely raved about the English and Scottish pubs (and the beer and ales too)he said the atmosphere inside the pubs was wonderful and his only negative comment was the prices, but after a couple of pints he didn't give a damn; here in Aussie the pubs are full of gambling machines, they have strict dress codes, brain dead security guards and it is difficult to find an old fashioned pub in the city and outer city areas.
A lot of tourists go to the UK just to see and visit the pubs some of which go back a couple of hundred , years, OH LORD, GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY SPLASH.
36

Pocket Dictionary,

28/07/2008 06:51:22
And I couldn't go to a pub before the smoking ban because of the impact cigarette smoke has on my asthma.
37

Andrah,

Embrugh 28/07/2008 07:04:34
28# The "science" you appear to support seems to be in the "School Bus found on the Moon" category. Why can't some people understand that the majority of us do not want smokers to spew their noxious,irritant, carcinogenic filth all over them in enclosed,public places. Smokers would likewise be outraged if someone walked into the pub and pi**ed all over the back of their clothes, or even on to the carpet. It is not "Nazi" to apply sensible risk controls in shared environments to address health, safety or hygiene matters.
38

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 28/07/2008 07:07:53
Wow. Smokers seem a most unpleasant and angry collection of people. Some of them seem bordering on sociopathic, so I can't imagine them going to pubs anyway, and the thought of them being allowed to get drunk in public is very frightening.
39

terry osser,

morden 28/07/2008 07:13:40
tax is the problem--80% of pub income goes in tax
40

walter,

28/07/2008 07:18:55
There are many acceptable reasons that pubs and clubs are seeing a drop in sales or closing.
The one reason that is not an acceptable excuse for these events is the smoking ban.
We all know that the evidence produced was questionable at the least and any scientist that spoke against the effects of passive smoking was ostracized.
Richard Doll was a perfect example, hailed as the world most authoritative expert in the effects of smoking he was shunned after stating “The effects of other people smoking in my presence is so small it doesn't worry me” in 2001.

In March 1998 the World Health Organisation was forced to admit that the results of a seven-year study (the largest of its kind) into the link between passive smoking and lung cancer were not statistically significant.

The ill effects of passive smoking are still intuition rather than scientific fact, and billions have been spent by the medical institutions in pursuing this illusory myth” (British Medical Journal, 1 August 2004).

It is well known that there is no real evidence that passive smoking has a serious effect on non smokers but the ban was brought in anyway using passive smoking and it will not be accepted that it is to blame for any drop in sales or closures of establishments
41

Lissa,

California 28/07/2008 07:23:07
We're having the same problem out here, with the anti-smoking laws tanking the local businesses.
Plus, it's not fun anymore.
42

Boy Wonder,

28/07/2008 07:39:33
94-year-old New Age prophet of doom, Chuckles Linskaill is only partially right. While smoking ban has had an obvious effect, you cannot dismiss other Draconian anti-drinker measures taken by the authorties of the country and cities.

The No-drink-No-drive one is obvious ... and indeed welcome.

The multiplicity of CCTV all over the place, whiche deters the heavily drink-fuelled fighters, vandals, thieves, muggers and sex-traders!

And the worst one of all ... the enactment of the vicious anti-vertical drinking campaign.

Face it ... this Labour Govt has lost the plot and turned into Big Brother with a vengeance, with the connivance of the other parties in various measures throughout the entire island!

Oh yeah ... the ranting Churches haven't helped either!
43

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 28/07/2008 07:39:49
Our local is pricing itself out of business. It sells £4 wine for £11 and wonders where its customers are now drinking instead.
44

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 07:40:11
Out comes Charles Linskaill with the pro smoking lobby, they don't even read the experienced quotes above, just prattle own inaccurate lines. I worked with Holsten, we knew 7 yeas ago beer was on the decline in bars and was a non reversible path due to a combination of factors - costs of running a pub, people concerned about health, competition from supermarkets and competition from wine.


Above Colin Wilkinson, secretary of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association (SLTA), said a multitude of factors were combining to turn the screw on pubs.

He said: ".....the smoking ban, but it's not just down to that. We have things like the rents, rates and fuel costs. "But the main thing I would say is the price of alcohol in supermarkets.


So the pro smokers ignore the real cause as quoted and focus on their pet little thing.

The guy from Camra too does not blame smoking Ian Brocklebank, a director of the Campaign for Real Ale (Camra), said the growing gap in the price of alcohol between pubs and supermarkets was driving an increasing number of publicans out of business.

People I know are more likely to go to a non smoke filled pub than before but they are not beer drinkers in the main.

This persistent twisting of stories by contributers above to promote the pro smoking lobby is is pathetic.
45

conservative,

Fife 28/07/2008 07:40:56
I don't think the smoking ban has been the main cause of the slowdown. The cost of a pint whould put many people off (it puts me off!). Also the rise in club-pubs with their drink-till-you-drop cut-price promotions don't help.
46

SouthernSkye,

28/07/2008 07:44:15
These days it is a choice between a drink for ones car or a drink for ones-self.The former gets you to work and the latter can keep you away!
No smoking, vast increases in fuel and household bills, foodstuffs increasing, tax increases (no 10p tax band), cheap supermarket booze. It all adds up to less disposable income. I would think cinemas and theatres are also taking a hit, as are Hotels and tourism (reported elsewhere in The Scotsman).
Poeple ain't got any spare cash!
47

Lee Hutchison,

fife 28/07/2008 07:46:01
while there may be some arguement as to the effects of passive smoking, there is one thing that no-one can argue with....smoking stinks.....smokers stink......pubs smell better without you :)
However I don't think that having gangs of smokers at every pub door encourages individuals to want to run their gauntlet in order to get a pint.
Supermarkets are winning because people would rather drink at home than put up with an unpredictable atmosphere in a ned filled pub which charges high prices for the privilege.

Oh and btw Charles....your opinions don't suddenly become fact just because you decide to TYPE IN CAPITAL LETTERS
48

Helmut Smegma,

Edinburgh. 28/07/2008 08:00:44
Pubs have overpriced themselves for years,even before the smoking ban became effective.
49

Joe,

Coalhole 28/07/2008 08:37:24
#33..Free Beer?..I hope Alex Salmond doesn't cotton on to that..Free Scotland ideology is already creaking under the weight of SNP promises.
50

Mike Masterton,

28/07/2008 08:37:43
I'm a non smoker, but banning smoking from pub's was / is a nonsense, and taking the piano away from the "Firkin" pubs was another mistake.
We never know what we had 'till it's gone !
And the gready government of course.
51

Ferg,

Bridge of Allan 28/07/2008 08:38:59
The smokers still go to the pubs as you see them hanging outside but you also get a lot more people who will happily go to a bar as they don't stink of smoke the next day. The decline is due to high prices (especially soft drinks) and of course economic effects. Discounted alcohol in the supermarkets is also a factor.
52

bogmon,

28/07/2008 08:41:05
I agree with Charles - and I am a non-smoker. It is completely daft to ban smokers from ALL pubs. This blanket ban is proving to be the pub's death warrant. Why can't there be a comfortable, well-ventilated room and bar set aside in each pub specifically for smokers? It could be tended by staff who themselves smoke??
53

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 28/07/2008 08:46:41
What a well thought out piece of reporting. How on earth can even the Scotsman equate empty pubs with cheap supermarket booze and then use a pub on Mull as an example? If you include the price of a Calmac return fare to Oban, the supermarket drink is very expensive indeed.

#48
It's actually the breweries that have overpriced their "wet" sales. The markup on a pint of beer is nowhere near the markup on a measure of spirits.

The death-knell was sounding long before the smoking ban. Over-regulation, the cost of taxis and many other factors were already killing off the trade - the smoking ban was merely a coup de grace.
54

voltaire's janny,

28/07/2008 08:49:15
Who cares?

There are plenty of pubs. With fresh air too. So a few go to the wall - that's commerce. A pub needs to supply more than drink to keep folks coming in. Atmosphre, craic, catering, sport on tv, efficent courteous service etc. The public know a good pub when they're in it and such bars are thriving.

And if the rural pub in Englandshire is under threat, then that's a few less drunks on the road too.

The saddos staying at home with their tinnies to save a few coppers are just Billy-no-mates or smokers.

55

Nellie,

Liverpool 28/07/2008 08:58:26
I don't have the figures to back me up but my observations are that the smoking ban has had little effect in the Liverpool and West Lancashire areas. The smokers just step out side for their puff, and some of the pubs have even given them shelters (even HEATED shelters in some places) so they can have a smoke without the fags getting soggy in the rain. Just a little creativity rather that laying down with legs in the air... or is the smoking ban law different North o' the border? (Have to admit it's a while since I've been ... but look out, "I'll be back!")
56

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000 miles from Earth's core 28/07/2008 09:07:24
#1,2,4,7 etc...As a non-smoker ,I think its the smoking ban as well. The smokey smell has gone ,to be replaced with sweaty feet and B.O.
#53
"Over-regulation, the cost of taxis and many other factors were already killing off the trade - the smoking ban was merely a coup de grace."
Agreed
#54
"The saddos staying at home with their tinnies to save a few coppers are just Billy-no-mates or smokers."
Maybe for you , but for the rest of us i who do actually have friends and a life it makes perfect sense ,if you can watch the match on satalite/cable get a carry out and make some snacks etc, you know make a bit of an effort, its much nicer. I end up standing outside the pub with my smoker mates anyway , so what's the point going in the first place if I'm going to stand outside in the wind and rain?
Nice one government, destroying a seemingly indestructable business, that most of us can use responsibily. Must be great for the tourist trade too.
57

First Rule of Anarchy,

28/07/2008 09:15:07
It's going to be 30 degrees here in London today.
I'll be in a pub with a beer garden:-)
58

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

28/07/2008 09:17:51
Am I missing something here or are less pubs actually a good thing ?
59

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 09:26:40
As usual this one has jumped right onto the smoking ban.

If you read the whole article then you will see that a figure is quoted of 69,000 pubs in Britain in 1980, compared to 57,000 today. 12,000 divided by 28 years equals 428 pub closures per year. What was the cause of all the closures prior to the smoking ban??
Any chance it was that they were just crappy boozers.
60

The Honest Lad,

Musselburgh 28/07/2008 09:30:22
You can still smoke outside a pub in open space. At least I am free from being killed by other peoples filthy habits. An intresting stat would be as to whether the country actually drinks less? This would be a good thing and potentially reduce a burden on the NHS.
61

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 28/07/2008 09:33:05
#58
Depends where you live.

For many of us, less pubs = no pub.
No pub = no social community interaction.

All too few people get out and mingle with their neighbours - they don't go to the shinty, they don't go to church, they just stay a home watching a bunch of foreign wooftahs indulging in amateur dramatics on a football field in the centre of Glasgow, Manchester, etc.
62

James Donald,

Newbridge 28/07/2008 09:40:50
#20 Charles Linskaill,Edinburgh - Here is the weather forecast for Edinburgh for the next 5 days from the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/5day.shtml?id=1808
No freezing cold so very little chance of "frost bite".
Hard to think what exactly you are going to "suffer" by going outside for a cigarette - when the weather is good most drinkers at my local are outside anyway.
63

Who?,

28/07/2008 09:47:57
I've heard it all now- pubs closing due to the western credit crunch- lol!

I for one welcome less pubs. Too many of the "traditional" pubs were dirty, rodent infested hell holes filled with men and women who were drinking themselves into an early grave.

In fact can i reccommend the closure of another pub: The Golden Rule in Fountain Bridge. This pub, its manager and its patrons are absolutly awful! If you try and walk past it you get showered with fag ash and butts. If you ask the punters to watch what their doing they just abuse you. When i stayed in the street a few years ago we had drunks from the pub vomiting and urinating in the stairway. I went in and spoke to the then manager about the state of the street, what was happening in the local flats and the punters smoking etc and i was litterly told to bu44er off- not interested!

Its a pitty that some small town or niche pubs are closing especially when you consider some that are still open.
64

James Donald,

Newbridge 28/07/2008 09:48:27
#55 Nellie,Liverpool - Smokers are well catered for North of the Border but that will not stop the "Wheezy Brigade" moaning that they can't enjoy a smoke in the pub with their pint and have the enormous burden of having to get off their behinds to indulge their habit.
CAMRA may lobby the government to help publicans but ending the smoking ban is not going to happen. Smokers will just have to live with it or stay at home with their supermarket-bought tinnies.
65

Astarte,

Giffnock 28/07/2008 09:52:24
I was in Philadelphia recently and lunched at a Downtown Bar&Lounge. There is no ban on smoking but customers were prohibited from smoking at the Buffet and requests for them to be considerate of Non-smokers in all other areas. Such a civilized approach to a very divisive question and it works just fine and all are happy.
66

Metal Mickey,

28/07/2008 10:11:26
Mr Linskaill

You make a lot of 'good' points but what's with 'all' the 'quotation marks'!

AND CAPITAL 'LETTERS'.

Yours 'etc.'
67

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

28/07/2008 10:11:57
The Draconian anti-smoking laws in Scotland are going to get worse.

A friend of mine, who has just recently bought a pub, told me that under the new Licensing Act LA's have even more powers over 'smoking in public places'.

For example, you can currently go outside and have a fag, or go into a 'beer garden' if you are lucky enough to have one in your local, but the new act gives the power to LA's to class the 'beer Garden as part of the 'Licensed Premises' and therefore can enforce the ban on smoking, even in an 'unenclosed public place'. There is also provision to prevent customers from smoking with 1.2 metres of the premises, i.e. not the doorway, but the premises, you therefore have to be standing no less than 1.2 metres (4ft approx in old money) away from the building.


In fact one pub in my area has already been shown a 'yellow card' for allowing it's patrons to smoke in it's 'beer garden'.

Freedom, freedom my aris, dictatorial, brainless thugs!!!!
Oh and for the deranged non-smokers, if one can filter Nuclear contam, an biological and nerve contam from the atmosphere, then the same can be done with tobacco smoke, and guess what it would cost less than £5000 on average to fit these 'air scrubbers' into existing pubs.

Perhaps another reason for the 'smoking ban' is more sinister, i.e. the severing of communications between like minded souls.
After all the 'smoke filled 'coffee houses' of the 18th century, led to most of the scientific,political and cultural innovation that has become known as the 'age of enlightenment'!!
Not much enlightenment left with this load of sycophantic idlers, who introduced this illegal act.

On a point of order, although it was an SNP MP who 'introduced' the original bill, it didn't have the backing of the then NuLab/Fibdem administration, Then Black Jack during the election campaign before it was introduced, said that no way was he going to introduce a 'blanket ban on Smoking in Public Places, once he was re-elec
68

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

28/07/2008 10:12:29
cont; from #67

On a point of order, although it was an SNP MP who 'introduced' the original bill, it didn't have the backing of the then NuLab/Fibdem administration, Then Black Jack during the election campaign before it was introduced, said that no way was he going to introduce a 'blanket ban on Smoking in Public Places, once he was re-elected the Nu Labour/Fibdems introduced the bill, and held 'secret' consultations with the public, and the rest as they say is history, we know have an illegal act that is suppressing the Law of Scotland, and no-one , save a very few of us, with the bottle to fight them on it.

This act is against the Human rights enshrined in law in Scotland, it prevents that most fundamental freedoms, the freedom of association..
69

vorlic,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 10:16:58
the decline of the pub.this NU LABOUR is just turning us into a bunch of slaves,less and less freedom,working just to pay the tax man and over inflated prices for any enjoyment we have left.and of course keep the divi up for the shareholders.soon we will have no choices left to us.as for the anti smoking brigade. what % drive and spew out toxic fumes from their exhaust pipes.of course this acceptable for them.to heck with the rest of us poor mortals.
70

Yeah1,

28/07/2008 10:17:07
1. the smoking ban is just one of a number of factors that are leading to the closure of pubs, it is not the main reason

2. Personally I agree totally with the smoking ban, whether passive smoking causes or not it is still disgusting to have to breathe in other people's smoke and to go home at the end of the night stinking of other people's cigarettes.

3. Looking back in a few years time people will think it unbelievable that anyone was even allowed to smoke in pubs or restaurants - just as today it seems ludicrous that people were once allowed to smoke on planes and buses and in cinemas and shopping centres.
71

Down with everything,

28/07/2008 10:18:04

I am pleased with the ban as i gave up smoking Jan 1st (due to having to stand outside amongst other things) and not seeing people smoke makes it a lot easier.

I agree that many pubs have gone bust, but all businesses are suffering at the moment and those at the luxury end ( i.e. not necessity) will suffer first, look at golf club membership for example, also in serious decline.
People are understandably tightening their belts and these businesses are litmus paper for the general state of affairs.
72

Down with everything,

28/07/2008 10:20:03

I also firmly believe that if smoking is as bad as the govt make it out to be then why don't they ban it?

same goes with booze.

wonder what BAT, Tennents and others would say to this.

OH, and the govt would go bust overnight.
73

JohnBowes,

28/07/2008 10:22:30
Working class people are more likely to smoke. Thus it was this group who lost out in terms of the smoking ban in pubs. They are now staying at home and thus pubs are closing.

People are NOT smoking less. They are NOT drinking less.

The smoking ban HAS led to pubs closing. So otherwise is ridiculous.

As for people who say they are not being "killed by other peoples smoke", what about the likes of car fumes? The smoke that comes out of the back of YOUR car like?
74

Liz,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 10:23:05
Two issues here.

1) The price of drinks in most pubs is the main problem - it cost me £3.20 for a pint of moderate lager (that despite the fancy name is brewed here in Edinburgh) on my last trip to the pub.

2) The smoking ban has had an effect but I would suggest this is mostly in pubs that still (18months later!) have a rather unpleasent smell of the mens toilets/overpowering smells of disinfectant to get rid of above odour.

The nicer bars that do decent food, and do not rip us off for drinks are now much improved by the smoking ban. Regardless of if passive smoking causes cancer, being able to go out at night and not come back smelling like an ashtray is far better than it used to be.
75

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

28/07/2008 10:24:51
"Camra is now lobbying Westminster to ease the financial burden on publicans to help them to tempt drinkers back."

Alcohol People. It's a drug. it is reponsible for so many of scotlands social ills yet this story is actually comiserating a drop in people going out and getting blootered.

Open your eyes you sad *ucks.
76

JohnBowes,

28/07/2008 10:25:38
Of course, pub owners have been shafting patrons for years. I recently went into a pub and it was nearly a quid for a packet of crisps. beyond belief. People simply don't go back to these places. And the price of a coke for example was extortionate. WHY would we pay such prices? Only mugs do that. WHY make these people rich?
77

JohnBowes,

28/07/2008 10:28:19
Yes indeed. Who want to go into a pub that is stinking with p*sh? BUT who wants to go into some middle class wine bar where they are all "ya ya" at each other either - showing off in an exceptionally phony mode? These people are tommy tankers.
78

MRab2,

28/07/2008 10:29:13
#44 Actually, that would be pro-choice, pro-smoking is inaccurate. Anti-choice, for your side of the fence isn't inaccurate, nor is anti-freedom.

Your particular brand of bull doesn't explain why regardless of where or when a smoking ban is brought into force a sudden slowdown in the hospitality industry follows. This is true the world over, even in California where the ban was brought in first. iirc the hospitality industry there shrunk year on year for at least five years before growth started again.

The quality of a law can be determined by the quality of the people who support it, I suggest anyone on the fence look at some of the comments from the anti-freedom camp, particularly the one about smokers being "scum of the earth" and ask yourself if these are the people you really want to ally yourself with.
79

Americanbob,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 10:40:51
#65 Astarte,
Don't know how "recently" you were in Philadelphia but there has been a smoking ban enforced throughout the city (not just in Center City either) for over a year now. It was set up by the Mayor and the city council and appears not to have affected the bars much, I accept that you can still smoke in bars outwith the city precincts (for the moment) but you did mention "downtown"
80

Steve_HMFC,

28/07/2008 10:41:02
I can't believe the arrogance of smokers, they think its out of order that they are asked not to pollute the rest of us by just stepping outside..

Not much of an excuse for people staying away from pubs.. YOU CAN STILL SMOKE YOU JUST HAVE TO STEP OUTSIDE!!...omg: end of the world isn't it??

The majority of pubs suffering are ones that havnt cleaned their toilets in 20 years or given the place a lick of paint.. they cant use smoking ban as an excuse for being a sh**-tip. Pubs and bars that have renovated are doing well.

Also, plenty comments about Labour, but this was a law that had cross party consensus. In Holyrood, the vote was passed 97 to 17, with the Tories only voting against because they wanted exceptions for Theatre Stages and Speicalist Tobacco shops. In Westminster, both Labour and Tories were split on the issue.
81

Pomodora,

Gravesend 28/07/2008 10:43:01
#65 Astarte..sounds great but it would never work in this country where our pubs are full of Lager louts and foul mouthed uncouth punters.
82

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 10:47:36
There are two main reasons for this. Firstly, the mind-numbingly stupid smoking ban is to blame, secondly, the tide of rediculous, brain-dead propaganda about drinking has started to take effect.

#80:

And I can't believe the arrogance of rabid anti-smokers such as you. Tobacco smoke DOES NOT "pollute you". It causes you NO HARM WHATSOEVER. There is also absolutely no valid argument against segregated (indoor) areas.

It is totally unacceptable and unreasonable to "ask us to step outside", especially when the weather is inclement, which it is most of the time in Scotland. If you want to take that kind of attitude then I would be quite justified in saying to you that if you don't like tobacco smoke then YOU can be equally as well asked to step outside---preferably permanently.
83

Yeah1,

28/07/2008 10:51:26
#80

"I can't believe the arrogance of smokers, they think its out of order that they are asked not to pollute the rest of us by just stepping outside"

Exactly - why should we have to breathe in the fumes of these addicts every time they want a cigarette?

Regardless of whether passive smoking causes cancer the stink of cigarettes and having to breathe in their smoke is bad enough on its own to warrant a ban.

Would these people complaining about the smoking ban in pubs also wish to see smoking allowed on planes, buses, trains and in cinemas and shopping centres again?
84

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 10:52:17
#70:

"...just as today it seems ludicrous that people were once allowed to smoke on planes and buses and in cinemas and shopping centres."

It doesn't to me. It seems ludicrous that we are not allowed to do so---especially in these days where efficient and (relatively) cheap air filtration systems are available that could completely solve the problem for those who whinge about a little bit of smoke.
85

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 10:52:53
#82. Go outside and have a cigarette and chill.
86

Yeah1,

28/07/2008 10:58:29
#82

"And I can't believe the arrogance of rabid anti-smokers such as you. Tobacco smoke DOES NOT "pollute you". It causes you NO HARM WHATSOEVER."

Actually there is substantial evidence that tobacco smoke does cause considerable harm - deniers like you are merely embarassing yourselves by arguing otherwise.

Anyway regardless of whether passive smoking causes harm - having to breathe in other people's smoke and to suffer while addicts like you selfishly feed your addiction is reason enough for a smoking ban - personally I would banning smoking outside too and force you to only do it in your own home.

Would you also like to see a return to smoking on planes and buses and in cinemas and shopping centres?
87

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 10:58:38
"Would these people complaining about the smoking ban in pubs also wish to see smoking allowed on planes, buses, trains and in cinemas and shopping centres again?"

In some cases, yes. If I am on a local bus, the fact that I'm not allowed to smoke doesn't really bother me. The same goes for short distance train journeys.

However, If I am on a long-haul bus, train or particularly an aircraft, where you are herded like sheep anyway (but that is a different argument) the provision for smokers should be made COMPULSORY.

Having smoking carriages on trains doesn't have any effect whatsoever on non-smokers. The last time I was on a long-distance train, I went to the smokng carriage to find that with the more efficient ventilation installed there, the air was actually much cleaner than in the non-smoking carriages---which smelld of sweat, farts, stale sandwiches and all other kinds of things.

Regardless of whether "passive smoking" exists (it does not in any case) and regardless of people whinging about a little bit of tobacco smoke (they should get a life) there is absolutely NO valid argument to stop people from smoking as and when they wish to do so.
88

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 11:05:13
#86:

"Actually there is substantial evidence that tobacco smoke does cause considerable harm"

And what, pray tell, what that "substantial evidence" consist of? According to official records NO-ONE has died from "passive smoking". NO-ONE has suffered a life-threatening disease from "passive smoking" and NO-ONE has even been proven to have suffered a nuisance but not life threatening condition through "passive smoking".

If you think you know different, then lets see you give us all some HARD evidence (as opposed to junk science) that proves your point. Write me a list of 5 people who have been killed by passive smoking in the last 6 months. If you can't do that simple thing then please refrain from boring us all with supposition and propaganda.
89

Steve_HMFC,

28/07/2008 11:07:24
#82
"Tobacco smoke DOES NOT "pollute you". It causes you NO HARM WHATSOEVER."

a) It causes cancer.
b) It causes people to cough excessively, and not nicely, especially for people with chest infections or asthma
c) It is one of the worst smells, ranked higher than dustbin rubbish, only slightly lower than excrement
d)It makes your clothes stink. You might have only gone to a pub to watch the fitba, not even had a drink, but you need to change when you get home even though you only wore that shirt and those jeans for a couple of hours.
e)If people didnt smoke,