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New legal threat to SNP's alcohol crackdown



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Published Date: 06 October 2008
A SECOND plank of the Scottish Government's flagship approach to tackling the country's booze culture appeared under threat last night.
Serious legal doubts were raised over the plans to set minimum prices for drinks, with experts warning that the controversial proposals could face court challenges in three different areas – European competition law, UK competition law and judicial review under the Scotland Act.

The SNP administration suffered a major setback last week when MSPs voted against its plans to raise the minimum age for buying alcohol in shops from 18 to 21.

That age-limit plan was to be part of a comprehensive assault on alcohol abuse and binge drinking. Other proposals included minimum pricing for alcohol, drink-only aisles at supermarkets, a curb on window advertising in off-sales and a ban on giveaway booze promotions in supermarkets.

All parts of the strategy, masterminded by Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, have been criticised by the drinks and retail industries, but now legal experts have added to the Scottish Government's problems, warning that the minimum-pricing policy might run into a series of different court challenges.

Ministers want to set minimum prices to drive up the cost of cheap lagers and ciders popular among teenagers.

In their initial consultation document, ministers suggested a price of 35p per unit of alcohol, a level that would raise the price of Strongbow cider rise by 27 per cent and McEwan's Export Premium by 35 per cent, but would leave Buckfast tonic wine much the same as it is now.

The new structure would not have much effect on the price of malt whisky but would drive up that of supermarket own-brand whisky and greatly increase the cost of mid-market supermarket wines.

Critics warned of the variable impact of the minimum-pricing proposal when it was announced in the summer, and Catriona Munro, a competition law partner at Scottish legal firm Maclay Murray & Spens, said then there could be "issues" with competition law.

Now Ms Munro and her colleagues have done detailed work on the Scottish Government's proposals and have compiled a more comprehensive critique.

They have concluded that, on the limited information made available by the SNP government, there are serious doubts over the minimum-pricing proposals on three different fronts:

&149 There could be a challenge to the policy under EU competition law, either from a foreign drinks manufacturer or a British retailer or manufacturer;

&149 There could be a challenge to the policy under the UK's competition laws, through the Office of Fair Trading;

• British retailers or manufacturers could take the Scottish Government to judicial review, arguing that the policy does not come within the remit of the Scotland Act because it deals with competition law, which is reserved to Westminster.

Angus Evans, a specialist in competition law at Maclay Murray & Spens, said one potential problem would come when the Scottish Government decided what price to set as the minimum for alcohol.

He said this would have to be done with the drinks industry, because ministers would need expert advice, but this would lead to problems.

He said: "Somebody could complain under the EC competition laws. In essence, what you would be saying is, Scotland is part of the UK and it has put into place legislation which rubber stamps an illegal agreement to fix prices.

"There would also be an argument that, if the Scottish Government is setting the price of alcohol, that could be seen as a competitive disadvantage for companies in other countries.

"If they set the price too high, if you are a Bulgarian making wine, all of a sudden, this change makes it difficult for you to compete. But it's going to be more serious with spirits because Scotland has its own industry. The EC might see that as a real protectionist measure."

Mr Evans did not believe that the Office of Fair Trading would be in favour of a move that set different price regimes on different sides of the Scotland-England Border as this would simply encourage greater use of internet sales and cross-Border booze tourists.

He went on: "There is also a question mark as to whether the Scottish Government has a right to do this under the Scotland Act. Health policy is devolved but competition policy is reserved."

A spokesman for the Scottish Government said: "(We have] made a range of bold proposals to tackle Scotland's cultural problem with alcohol. From raising the age of purchase in off-sales to 21 to introducing minimum pricing based on alcohol content, we believe these can tackle the alcohol misuse that's costing Scotland dearly.

"As ever, we will proceed on the basis of our own legal advice and not that of others. We are satisfied that the Scottish Parliament has the legal competence to implement our policies."

But Murdo Fraser, the deputy Conservative leader, said it appeared as if the Scottish Government's whole approach to alcohol was starting to fall apart.

He said the existing laws had not failed – it was just that the authorities had failed to use them.

"The blanket approach to minimum pricing is wrong. We should be targeting problem drinks and problem drinkers, not penalising everybody," he said.

Steps to tackle drinking abuse

THE Scottish Government's plans for a crackdown on alcohol include:

1 Raising the age limit for off-sales to 21: This has been condemned by students (including SNP students) and opposition parties, who claim the authorities should enforce existing laws better, not make criminals out of students and young drinkers. Last week, the Scottish Parliament voted by 72 to 47 to oppose this plan.

2 Minimum pricing for alcohol: The Scottish Government wants to introduce a minimum price for alcohol based on the alcoholic content of drinks: probably 35p per unit. This has been opposed by drinks manufacturers and retailers and now the legality of the proposal has been questioned. Competition lawyers have warned it could be challenged under European competition law, under UK competition law and by judicial review under the Scotland Act.

3 Separate aisles in supermarkets and shops: The Scottish Government wants to make the buying of alcohol a "special case purchase", like buying cigarettes, and wants to follow Northern Ireland, which has separate aisles for alcohol. However, this has been criticised by Diageo, the world's biggest drinks company, as "unnecessary and ineffective", and by retailers as expensive.

4 Ending loss-leader-type promotions: So-called "Bogof" offers – buy one get one free – have already been banned from on-sales and the Scottish Government wants to extend this to off-sales, too. Concerns have been raised about how this would dove-tail with the minimum pricing policy, but this is the one area that has had the least criticism from the trade and may be the most likely to survive into law.

5 Introducing a "social responsibility fee" to pay for consequences of misuse: This would be a fee that certain pubs, clubs and off-licences would be charged to help pay for late-night policing and other services linked to alcohol misuse. The Scottish Grocers Federation said the "social responsibility fee" was a tax that could threaten the livelihoods of small shopkeepers. Councillor Marjorie Thomas, convener of Edinburgh's licensing board, has also expressed caution, warning that city centre pubs were already being hit with increased charges.

6 A ban or a strict curb on window advertising for off-licences: This would greatly restrict what off-licences could use in their windows to promote products inside their shops. John Drummond, of the Scottish Grocers' Federation, said he believed window displays represented "almost their only opportunity" to advertise.

Price list

Asda's own South African red wine £2.50
Asda's own South African white wine £2.50
Asda's Beer Delux, 20 half-bottles £5
Asda's smart price vodka, 70cl £6.79
Tesco's French Red £2.49
Tesco's French White £2.49
Tesco's own beer, one 440ml can 24p
Tesco's Value Vodka, 70cl £6.54
Morrisons Australian Red £2.94
Morrisons Pearly Bay white £2.96
Morrisons Lager, four-pack 97p
Morrisons Vodka, 70cl £7.97
Sainsbury's Basics Spanish Red £2.23
Sainsbury's Basics Spanish White £2.22
Sainsbury's Premium Continental lager eight-pack £2.79
Sainsbury's Basics Vodka £6.54

The full article contains 1383 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 00:06:16


"New legal threat to SNP's alcohol crackdown",

GOOD, GOOD, GOOD, INFACT VERY GOOD!!!

A Muppet Proposal that WONT Change a thing!, except affect the ones that don't cause trouble, and that have no problems with Alcohol!

It is about time the SNP realise, they cant act like,...

....'Bulls in a China Shop'!!!!
2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 00:10:09


BTW! our 18-40year olds will never vote SNP again!

Effectively they are putting nails in their Coffin one more,

A Party that, if they don't behave themselves, will be History!
3

The Strategist,

06/10/2008 00:18:47
I'm quite astonished that bashing the SNP is more important to this apology for a newspaper than the meltdown in the banking system.
4

famous 15,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 00:18:53
The SNP have my total support in this matter. We MUST find a solution to the dichotomy between the sensible enjoyment of alcohol and the prevention of the destruction of lives in its abuse. The SNP Government are reaching out to all of Scotland for solutions not for the BS I have seen so far!
5

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 00:20:01
Another example of a badly thought through SNP policy.

Just as well they are not really in charge.

Imagine what life would be like if they had any real power.

6

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 00:24:37
#3 Worry you not.

Alex Salmond is going to fix the crisis in the banking system (just after he gets back from fixing the Hadron Collider).

His newly formed (in his head) Scottish Central Bank will be able to sort all the problems out.
7

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 06/10/2008 00:27:40
Alcohol is a controlled substance and not subject to normal competition rules, EU, UK or otherwise. Anyone can sell a bar of chocolate to anyone at any time at any price. Alcohol is not a bar of chocolate.
8

subrosa,

06/10/2008 00:30:02
I congratulate the Scottish government for doing its best to tackle the issue of alcohol abuse in this country. Every political party agrees there is a serious problem but only the SNP are prepared to do something about it.
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 00:33:16

#4,,

"sensible enjoyment of alcohol"

That's where you are Wrong!

They are more than,...'Dammed Right Stupid'!

10

,

06/10/2008 00:36:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/10/2008 00:36:59


Mor eold news, these threats were raised at the otuset of the consultation and were dismissed then as bollokks.

Fixing minimum drinks prices is possible under both UK and EU competition law, provided that minimum prices are imposed on licensees by law, or by a public body exercising public functions imposed on it by an enactment. Any involvement by alcohol producers or sellers in the fixing of minimum drinks prices, however, whether it be by voluntary industry codes or local agreements between pubs, police and licensing authorities, breaches UK and EU competition law. The critical factor when it comes to setting minimum drinks prices is that the alcohol industry should not be involved in the process in any way whatsoever.

This position has been confirmed by the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) in written advice to local authorities in England. The OFT, which monitors compliance with UK competition law, confirmed that “…where minimum prices are imposed at the sole instigation of a public authority such as the police or a local authority …there is unlikely to be an agreement between undertakings that can be the subject of a challenge under the Act. (Competition Act 1998) However, it is crucial to differentiate this from a situation in which licensees actively and jointly participate in the determination of minimum prices in a meeting or other joint forum, facilitated by the police or local authorities and licensing officials.

This latter scenario is likely to fall within the Chapter 1 [anti-competitive behaviour] prohibition”. The OFT position was also clearly spelled out to the Scottish Beer and Pub Association (SBPA) who complained to the OFT in 2004 that the provisions in Licensing (Scotland) Bill would have the effect of introducing ‘linear pricing’ and therefore be anti-competitive. Rejecting the SBPA complaint, the OFT pointed out that in exercising its legislative functions the Scottish Parliament was not engaging in ‘economic activity’ and therefore
12

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/10/2008 00:37:32
cont'd

in ‘economic activity’ and therefore was not an ‘undertaking’ for the purpose of the Act. Accordingly, the Competition Act did not apply to the Scottish Parliament acting in its legislative capacity.

Minimum drinks pricing schemes are already in existence in some local areas in England and Scotland, with the full knowledge of the OFT.

(1) Setting minimum drinks prices as specific monetary amounts makes monitoring and enforcement easier as authorities and the public can immediately see if a retailer is selling alcohol below a minimum price. However, deciding what the minimum price should be for categories of alcoholic beverages poses some practical and administrative challenges and legislators or public authorities may have to give some consideration to EU trade law on the matter.

In relation to EU law, if prices in the UK were set at a level which was deemed to disadvantage imported alcoholic beverages against national products, either because imported beverages could not profitably be marketed on the conditions laid down or because the competitive advantage conferred by lower cost prices was cancelled out, then a minimum pricing framework may be judged to constitute a trade barrier contrary to EU free movement of goods rules. If prices are fixed by reference to a solely national criterion without taking into account costs in other EU member states then the policy could fall foul of free movement rules. Deciding whether a minimum pricing framework did or did not constitute a trade barrier would require analysis of the relevant alcoholic beverages’ markets in Europe.
13

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/10/2008 00:37:46
cont'd

However, it’s also important to note that EU law allows exceptions to the free movement of goods rule on the grounds of public health, provided it can be shown that the prices set did not constitute a disguised trade barrier and were proportionate to addressing the problem of alcohol-related harm.

Proportionality requires a measure to be necessary to achieve the objective, and that the objective cannot be achieved by any less trade-restrictive means. On this point, health campaigners would argue that the best available evidence demonstrates direct links between alcohol price, consumption and associated harm and that action to increase alcohol price is one of the most cost-effective ways to reduce alcohol-related harm. Campaigners would therefore argue that minimum drinks pricing was both necessary and proportionate.

(2) In contrast to establishing minimum drinks prices as fixed monetary amounts, minimum pricing achieved by a minimum profit mark up would not be contrary to the free movement of goods rule. However, determining whether a trader was selling alcohol below cost would be much more difficult to monitor and enforce as compliance could not be immediately observed from the selling price.
14

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/10/2008 00:38:15


Additionally

Problem drinking impacts on major areas of public policy - health, social work, law and order, which are all matters devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Under the terms of the devolution settlement, the Scottish Parliament has the authority to legislate on minimum drinks prices in a devolved area, such as licensing or health, providing the legislation is not contrary to UK competition law (which is a reserved matter) or community law.

Scottish licensing legislation gives scope to Scottish Ministers to introduce minimum drinks prices. Indeed, new Scottish Licensing legislation which is due to come into force in 2009 has already been used to tackle irresponsible promotions of alcohol in the on-trade, and the current Scottish Government has promised to extend the provisions prohibiting irresponsible promotions the off-trade as well.

The Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 comes into force in September 2009. The 2005 Act is in part based on the recommendations of the Nicholson Committee which was mandated to review all aspects of liquor licensing law and practice in Scotland with particular reference to the implications for health and public order and to recommend changes in the public interest.

The Committee opined that any legislation following upon their report should ‘set out certain guiding principles or objectives which are to be the underlying basis for any decisions made by licensing boards’. Further to this recommendation, the 2005 Act sets out five licensing objectives that licensing boards must seek to promote and take into consideration when granting or reviewing licences. The five objectives are: preventing crime and disorder; securing public safety; preventing public nuisance; protecting and improving public health; and protecting children from harm.

These objectives are similar to those contained in the Licensing Act 2003 (which covers England and Wales), except for the reference to public health which is absent from the Wes
15

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/10/2008 00:38:43
cont'd

Westminster legislation.

Schedule 3 to the 2005 Act also contains provisions designed to control irresponsible promotions in the sale of alcoholic drinks.


Irresponsible promotions which the 2005 Act will outlaw include:


•the supply of an alcoholic drink free of charge or at a reduced price on the purchase of one or more drinks;

•the supply free of charge or at a reduced price of one or more extra measures of an alcoholic drink on the purchaseof one or measures of the drink; and

•the supply of unlimited amounts of alcohol for a fixed charge.


These provisions on irresponsible promotions currently only apply to the on-trade in Scotland. However the current Scottish Government has promised to amend the legislation by extending the provisions to cover the off-trade as well.

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Kenny MacAskill, has also announced that the government is considering action that can be taken within Scotland to end the deep-discounting of alcohol.

The provisions of the 2005 Act appear to be sufficiently broad to allow the addition of a further description of a drinks promotion which is irresponsible if it involves the supply of an alcoholic drink below a certain price.

The Act permits Scottish Ministers to add further descriptions of drinks promotions to those presently set out in the legislation or modify any of the descriptions and extend or restrict their application.

The Act further permits Schedule 3 of the Act to be modified by Scottish Ministers so as to add further conditions they consider necessary or expedient the purposes of the licensing objectives.

It could be argued that prohibiting the sale of alcohol below cost it was at least expedient for the purposes of the public health objective of the Act.
16

Jwil,

06/10/2008 00:53:43
"Now Ms Munro and her colleagues have done detailed work on the Scottish Government's proposals and have compiled a more comprehensive critique."

Who is paying this private compnay for this work?
17

notime4anovice,

glasgow 06/10/2008 00:58:58
What a pity Hamish the reporter didn't spend his weekend trying to find ways of implementing a safer drinking policy for Scotland instead of wasting his time with this guff. He'd have been better off spending his weekend in the pub.
Loads of surprising stuff about Diageo disagreeing with seperate aisles for drinks.
And retailers saying it would be too expensive while they sell alcohol as cheap as chips.
Angus Ogg from some company no one has ever heard of going on about the EC. Surely it's the EU now Angus.
Hamish thinks the EU might not allow us to set prices for alcohol as some Bulgarian wine seller ( who buys that gutrot ) might be at a disadvantage. Tell that to the French who limit the price of their EDF energy rise to 3% while we get a 35% increase.
Depressing anti SNP article from a depressing anti SNP paper.
18

Maisie from Morningside,

06/10/2008 01:20:04
If retailers think having a separate 'drinks only' aisle is too expensive then they can always take the cheaper option of not stocking alcohol at all.

It's their choice.
19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 01:35:47


Far Be It, from this Paper Being "Anti-SNP"

The SNP have been caught with their, 'Panties Down'!

Stupid Policies that Wont Work!

Trying to be Dictators!

Acting like Fools!

YES! this IS NEWS For All Papers, Far less the,..

'Scotsman News'!

20

doublescotch,

U.S.A. 06/10/2008 01:37:42
#10 Charles, Love,
Is all well with you and Suzanne? I have just arrived back from California(San Francisco) My favorite city in the world.
DOW. x


21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 01:49:11


doublescotch ~20,

The Answer is NO!

Suzanne is going through a really terrible time, I ask for your 'Prayers'.

On top of the IVF Failure, she was subjected to a serious attack,

It is taking me, more than I know, on how to deal with it,

All I have is uncoditional Love and Wisdom to offer.

-----------------

Sorry Readers! but "doublescotch" has been on these threads for years, I had to answer her Question, Her comments do relate to topics, as mine, this was a,..

Alcohol Related Attack on my Wife. (and maybe more)
22

Edward,

06/10/2008 01:54:59
Who is paying Maclay Murray & Spens for their work?
Perhaps Jack McConnell can answer this, you see he has connections with this firm, when he worked for Public Affairs Europe a company jointly owned by Maclay Murray & Spens and Beattie Media. Not saying he paid for the services but Im sure he will know who in Labour arranged it
23

Edward,

06/10/2008 01:58:48
What I find amazing is that the SNP Goivernment are doing there bes to tackle he problem of binge drinking in the young and all we get is attacks on them by Labour and their media flunkies. Surely for something as important as this the Scotish Government should be getting support. What this paper has never made it clear is that the Scottish Government are only consulting on the matter and putting forward some ideas and looking to the other parties in Parliament to either supprt, modify or come up with better proposals
24

The jurist,

06/10/2008 02:01:36
Very useful, Coileach an taobh Tuath.

Commended.

The trouble though is more psychological. It's the puritan ethic for the 21st Century and Government interfering in areas it has no business to be in, to get cheap headlines, mainly because they have such limited powers and keep looking to score a home run from them. McKaskill, get into this century. I'm tired of looking at your ruggedly handsome, grimacing, 17th century face. Also look around you. People really don't care about kak handed moral outrage, which you are so good at.
25

2Right,

On Location 06/10/2008 02:39:47
Come on kenny boy You are the Lawyer after all
26

Julian.,

edinburgh 06/10/2008 03:18:28
#23 Edward and Charles Linskaill

If that's the best they can do on the subject it's pretty pathetic. The problem is that the measures punish the 90% of the population who don't drink and cause chaos. And whether they have any effect on the young binge drinkers is really a shot in the dark.

And yes Charles I do agree with your comments. The idea that our children won't be allowed to buy a beer when they're students is farcical...it's an intrinsic part of the course;-)
27

Blarney,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 03:24:06
So what do all the SNP critics suggest we do about Scotlands alcohol problem and the crime it generates.
Obviously nothing.
28

Blarney,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 03:26:49
Can't restrict sales, can't increase the price, can't raise the age for purchase and consuming alcohol.
So let's do nothing, truly pathetic.
This is our country, come up with some ideas instead of just rubbishing the ones put forward.
29

madabbot,

far away 06/10/2008 03:33:05
Some one has been on the buckfast when they wrote about the QE2 and her trip to BIRTH in the Forth nice one Scotsman or shouel we say allo sailor.......
30

Blarney,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 03:34:04
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.2457426.0.Increase_in_alcohol_abuse_fuels_youth_crime.php
Yes everything is fine the way it is, my backside.
Start to join in trying to fix our country instead of hindering people who are trying to do something.
Our country is the sick man of europe, does that make you proud.
If you think the ideas are wrong then come up with some that you think will sort this mess out.
31

Charlie Ferrier,

Hamilton 06/10/2008 03:47:19
I find it incredible that this newspaper which supports Labour and its hyperbolic increases in taxes wont support a similar move by a party that their own readership voted for.

In this case however the issue is one of taking taxes from a sector of commerce that costs the tax payer a great deal in terms of taxes, safety, lifestyle etc.

Its only fair that this industry which so boldly inflicts this harm on society as did and still do the tobacco giants, should be made to pay a bigger proportion of the bill and even overpay to make it take some responsibility for the problems.

Yet this newspaper perversly defends them - its like telling the victims to thank mengele for carrying out his despicable acts.

Government tax policy is not an issue that the courts need to rule on particularly when its applied in a fair manner accross the industry. Having a set tax per unit of alcohol is perfectly fair - if people want strong alcolhol concentration they just have to pay more - its a very elegant solution which to some extent is already being applied - after all why do we have the excisemen? This would simply adjust the numbers to make apply more sensibly in todays society. And it would apply equaly to local and imported goods so there is no anti competitive issue in this case.

It would render imported cheaper products potentially less cheap and nearer the price of the made in Scotland products - this is actually good for the scottish economy in at least thre ways. British made products would be more competitive, There would be less working days lost due to illness, there would be less violence and accidents. All good - so all you knee jerkers just think before you comment. Its not about law its about society and standards
32

jabberjocky,

edinburgh 06/10/2008 04:49:22
who's side were you on when Scotland was dying ?

The Scotsman - pathetic as usual - why dont you go and interview some a&e staff about this issue rather than some corporate shill ?

I love how theres no comment on the photographer that was fined for taking a picture of a drunk woman - half the population is drinking itself to death but lets just pretend its not happening and prosecute anyone who says otherwise.
33

Col. Blimp­IV*,

06/10/2008 05:06:56
I went into mini-supermarket once with a mate who was an alcoholic, to get some beer before watching the football on TV.

I just grabbed a couple of bottles and went to the till, Mr X checked out every brand doing a calculation to give them all a units of alcohol per pound rating, before making his choice.

I asked why the rigmarole...he said that sooner or later in each week he would run out of money...and he didn't want to squander any by paying for superfluous water.

Sad but true.
34

Nikostratos,

06/10/2008 05:13:32
#35 col

sounds like a good idea to me...
35

somerferg,

perth 06/10/2008 06:19:19

Usual junk journalism from Hambo and lunatic comments from Charlie and his wee pals. What a shame there are still clowns out there who think that the issue of alcohol abuse in Scotland is one best left alone. Yes all you lot can rant on about are "your rights" to get pi$$ed as and when ever oh and of course encourage your sprogs to do the same (just like dear old daddie) How's about considering the responsibilities that go with those rights i.e. to ensure that the issues of domestic violence/ poor health/ lost productivity are dealt with properly in relation to the abuse of alcohol. Oh I forgot thats just a a bit too difficult for you to comprehend better to go back to the way things used to be with the party who likes to keep the plebs poor and ignorant as well as drunk while they line their own pockets - just ask wee joke McFlannel.
36

R Davis,

Vienna, Austria 06/10/2008 06:41:13
Two headlines from West coast papers this morning.

Increase in alcohol abuse fuels youth crime (The Herald)


Thug gets 14 years after kicking man to death for refusing a drink. (The Record)

Neither of them are startling news. Although the second is sickening.
The price list at the end of the article doesn't mean a lot. Alcohol is cheaper here, cheaper than the prices quoted, but no where near the same problem as Scotland. Something has to change.
37

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 06/10/2008 07:06:12
#34 "I wish Salmond would do us all a favour and retire"

Yeah, I bet you do. He keeps annoyingly making idiots out of Unionist trolls like you by bringing forward policies that are positive, sensible and popular with the Scottish people, and increasing the SNP's poll ratings month after month after month, to the point where they're odds-on favourites to win a byelection starting from 10,000 votes behind. It certainly would be doing you a favour if he retired, but I fear you're in for a disappointment.
38

Kyle N Carrick,

06/10/2008 07:11:35
35. Nice that you took AM2 shopping though.
39

Kyle N Carrick,

06/10/2008 07:13:35
41. If only Salmond had the sure-footed political instincts, managerial competence and policy expertise of Gordon Brown.....
40

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 07:26:35
#43 Superb point.

If only he did.
41

AntiPCman,

06/10/2008 07:29:12
11 onwards - Thank you for that, very informative, though I think aspects would be challenged.

I am not a supporter of the SNP but I do recognise that this issue has to be tackled. I am impressed with the SNP's sentiments but not with their methods of announcement on the way forward. They headline their ideas based on a poorly thought through manifesto and then fall foul of legislation or legal permission - eg. Council Tax and inability to borrow monies for school building through SFT.
As a teetotaller for 35 years, it makes no difference to me whether alcohol exists or not but something needs to be done to combat the excessive drinking in Scotland which is not confined to a tiny majority but is endemic in the Scottish culture. I am in a position to have an effect on people's drinking but I can only do that with legislation that works.
Get to it and sort some workable measures out and Scotland can enjoy alcohol in a sensible manner.
42

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 06/10/2008 07:31:55
I have a real problem with the under 21 thing - mainly because no-one has ever seriously implemented present laws on under age drinking- before thinking about more. However I am in favour of minimum pricing. Brown is also considering this in England - so we could get some rare co-ordination on both sides of the border. I believe he is actually looking at 40p per unit - so higher than here.
43

Peter Roberts www.teatromimo.com,

San Sebastian, Spain 06/10/2008 07:35:14
#1

It is about time the SNP realise, they cant act like,...

...the theatre group that uses the show “Getting straight through” as a basis to explore a number of facts about the effects of alcohol consumption with the aim of developing a critical attitude in the audience towards the personal, family, work and social problems generated by an alcohol culture.

“Getting Straight Through” targets youngsters in the 14-18 year age group attending secondary school education.

The representation of Mime against Alcohol headed by Peter Roberts, creates a great emotional impact on the teenage spectators, giving warmth to otherwise cold statistics that sometimes fail to provide elements to help make decisions on prevention and to favour debate about the damage caused by drugs. It is a program liked by local teachers, (in Spain) because it departs from routine and predisposes very favourably to learning behaviours in students.

In the surveys carried out the students have highlighted: the interpretation of the artist as well as the capacity of the show to raise awareness about the risks associated with consumption.

More at http://www.teatromimo.com/
44

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 07:35:27
43 Kyle
If we are to assess Salmond's abilities it is evident that he is strong in his "political instincts". However doubts appear to exist over his "managerial competence" and "policy expertise". The situation with the policies on alcohol appears to be the latest example of policies which have run into trouble as they have not been thought out properly.
45

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 07:53:04
50 bring them on
As in his injudicious tirade against "spivs and speculators" perhaps
46

Linda,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 07:56:31
Those who oppose anti irresponsible drinking measures will pay the price at the ballot box.
47

Joe,

Longstone Road 06/10/2008 08:10:35
Anyone for a booze cruise to Northern England? Better still, anyone for immigration?
48

Rambo.the.Jambo,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 08:13:04
1 Raising the age limit for off-sales to 21: This has been condemned by students (including SNP students) and opposition parties, who claim the authorities should enforce existing laws better, not make criminals out of students and young drinkers. Last week, the Scottish Parliament voted by 72 to 47 to oppose this plan.


Duuuhhhhhhh as students would say. It won't 'make criminals' out of them IF THEY DON'T BREAK THE LAW BY TRYING TO BUY ALCOHOL IF UNDER 21.

COMPRENDE?????????????


49

McMillar,

Fife 06/10/2008 08:15:45
Bizarre that this is a headline with everything else that’s going on. Maybe the RBS team had a word with them to do easy…..The SNP proposal is surely a good move when the key aim is to reduce the number of young people drinking too much. Doesn’t really impact on me as I go for the expensive 2 for 1 at tesco! They are doing the right thing for Scotland here and objections all look rather petty. It is time to get rid of the ‘sick man of europe’ tag and we need to generate a lot more health + wealth.
50

Bigwull,

edinburgh 06/10/2008 08:18:54
prohibition doesn't work, I detect religious freakery behind this
51

Boy Wonder,

06/10/2008 08:21:20
Raising the alcohol buying age is simply the wrong way to go. And I saw this backlash coming from miles away. Why didn't Eck and his twonk of a minister McAskill??

Don't pursue this one SNP ... you'll lose the younger voters!
52

Rambo.the.Jambo,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 08:24:58
Why dont certain posters on this thread get off their anti-SNP anti-Salmond high horses and look at the wider social picture.

There are too many drink related crimes perpetrated by under 18s.

There are too many 14 - 18 year olds that think it is normal behaviour to drink themselves into a coma over the weekend.

The council and police are doing their bit by trying to crackdown on youth crime.

If drink was not available until 21 and ALL booze outlets strictly enforced the law the problem would disappear.

I woluld add a caveat to the Bill, compulsory £1000 fine to anyone buying alcohol to pass on to children (hey mister, gonnae get us some booze fae the shoap??)

Things were never this bad when I was young.
53

Calum10,

06/10/2008 08:26:58
Remember "LOBBYGATE"?

Jack McConnell worked for Public Affairs Europe Ltd that was jointly owned by Beattie Media and Maclay Murray & Spens.

Christina Marshall worked for Beattie Media.

MacLay, Murray & Spens have a very, very, very close relationship with the Labour party.

This is a put up story by the Scotsman, the Labour party and those closely associated to the Labour party.
54

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 08:35:53
The SNP want to do something about the appalling drink culture in Scotland.
THE OTHERS DON'T.
55

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 06/10/2008 08:59:57
Don't tell me, the Scotsman has been phoning around different Lawyers until it got a couplewho's views it liked.
56

cabrach loon,

06/10/2008 09:24:06
Education re the damage to health by excessive drinking is the most important step - how I wish I had been better informed before I left school and drank too much as a student - I suffer for it now 50 years on!

Price restrictions are pathetic like prohibition in the USA - the effect is the opposite, same as with drugs - crime may escalate instead!
57

SEUMAS,

fearn 06/10/2008 09:24:35
WHAT a misnomer--Hamish Mcdonnell I presume you are in favour of unregulated alcohol consumption with the attended problems it causes or is it that you just hate the S.N.P.
58

Miss H,

06/10/2008 09:32:36
65 Sorry but that is just rubbish. People have never been more educated about the dangers of alcohol as they are now yet yet people have never drunk as recklessly than they do now.

It is absolutely about price and availability not simply education.

As prices in real terms have dropped consumption has increased. Read the statistics in the consultation - the link between price, availability and consumption could not be clearer.
59

Walter Ego,

Durness 06/10/2008 09:32:45
Scotland's fascination with alcohol must stop but the SNP's naive attempts to tackle the problem are laughable. If you want to know how to stop drinking, ask someone who has successfully kicked the habit - Kenny MacAskill. I take my hat off to him.
60

Walter Ego,

Durness 06/10/2008 09:34:40
67

Miss H, you have been guilty of posting some tripe in your time but, on this occasion, I agree with you. I take my hat off to you.
61

Miss H,

06/10/2008 09:38:02
26 You are missing the whole point - while illustrating what the problem is.

It is not simply about young binge drinkers. It is also about the middle aged folks who come home from work, open a bottle of £2.50 supermarket wine and drink it. Every night. They are also drinking recklessly and hazardously though many of them may ignore the health message because they do not fit the stereotype of the teenage binge drinker.
62

Queen D,

Glasgow 06/10/2008 09:41:38
Perhaps this member of the Labour Party had imbibed too much?!
http://tinyurl.com/3lgjux
63

Walter Ego,

Durness 06/10/2008 09:52:20
70

MissH, why are you talking sense today? I find it strange that I am agreeing with you 100%.
64

Calum10,

06/10/2008 09:55:57
This is a completely made up story by HAMISH MACDONELL for Maclay Murray & Spens have a very close association with the Labour party. Jack McConnell was once employed by MacLay Murray & Spens as a lobbyist.
65

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 09:59:23
Those who - like the SNP here - fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. America tried prohibition. It did nothing to curb alcohol abuse and much to give organised crime a solid economic base.

The SNP's daft notion that they can legislate unhealthy and antisocial behaviour out of existence shows just how far out of touch they are with reality. Salmond (not exactly an avowed teetotaller himself) is a populist bully throwing lollipops at voters, and it has mostly worked so far, but he has got it badly wrong with this one.

Btw, Scotland has a real gambling problem as well. Do you think there is any chance of the Smug One closing down the bookies?
66

Miss H,

06/10/2008 10:01:18
74 If the SNP was proposing to introduce the prohibition of the sale of alcohol you might have a point. But since they are not you don't.
67

The Tin Man,

06/10/2008 10:03:28
If any of the commentators above really want alcohol-only check-outs at large supermarkets (but not small supermarkets, and off-licenses), I will eat my shorts.
68

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 10:05:17
70 Miss H
Are they going to stop doing this just because the price goes up from £2.50 to £2.80?
69

Ronnie Ray,

glasgow 06/10/2008 10:08:36
Ah the labour luvvies....may I suggest you check your spelling before you hit the submit button..Oh thats right you cant spell...how outrageous to say the snp are dictatorial...after 11 years of the labour high commands..giving us the nanny state?...Brown competant?..at least the snp are trying to solve this problem the labour party are more interested in the alchohol industries profits than the health of the nation..you labour deadbeats and dinosaurs are like your leader deluded and guilty of not living in the real world...psychophants who are running scared of by elections..i.e jack mc connells seat...wake up you fools the labour party have been treating the people of scotland with contempt for decades John Smith must be turning in his grave at the site of this pathetic excuse for a labour party...party of the rich...NEW LABOUR NEW TORIES ...VOTE SNP
70

Miss H,

06/10/2008 10:10:06
77 In itself no but combined with the other measures - separate sales aisles, a ban on 2 for 1 or 3 for 2 type offers, restrictions on advertising etc - then yes I would expect it to reduce consumption. Not least because it will raise awareness in a way that 'safe drinking' education just does not do.
71

Ronnie Ray,

GLASGOW 06/10/2008 10:12:34
wow still not spotted the deliberate errors yet!
72

The Tin Man,

06/10/2008 10:14:08
#78 Ronnie

Yes, the Labour party is a party of centalised-state nannying. I am disappointed that you ignore exactly the same traits in the SNP (which propogates even more centralised government than Labour, and also fails to believe in people's abilities to think for themselves).
73

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/10/2008 10:15:11
Another non-story. The Scottish Government have consulted civil servants and have taken legal advice on this policy. They will press ahead and this will become law. Murdo Fraser's party supports this part of the bill as do the other opposition parties, so I foresee no problems.

Better luck next time Hamish !
74

The Tin Man,

06/10/2008 10:18:56
#78 Ronnie

By the way, Ronnie, I don't remember Labour ever relying on Tory votes like the SNP do in Holyrood (it would be inconvenient to declare it as a pact?).
75

notime4anovice,

glasgow 06/10/2008 10:19:51
#78 Ronnie

Although I agree with your sentiment about Labour luvvies I wouldn't get into the spelling thing too much.
Everyone makes mistakes. Even yourself.
It's competent not competant for example.
And some sentences with capitals and full stops would make your article easier to read.
76

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/10/2008 10:20:27
#74 GC

In the American context, Prohibition was the complete ban on the sale, manufacture and transportation of alcohol. Are you suggesting that this is what the SNP are proposing?
77

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/10/2008 10:23:56
#83 TM

No they just relied on Libdem votes.

I do note, however, that Labour at Westminster have relied on Tory votes on a number of occasions
78

Ronnie Ray,

glasgow 06/10/2008 10:26:59
#81..tin man we have tried the drink smart route..very little effect ..if scotland were to become independant the first three major problems that would have to be tackled are alchohol abuse ...sectarianism..poverty..if your alchohol bill is high maybe you are drinking to much! is it wrong to try and stop people destroying their health?..
79

SEUMAS,

fearn 06/10/2008 10:27:20
I remember when the pubs closed at 10p.m. in the winter and slightly later in summer, perhaps this should be considered again as opposed to the 24h.r. situation created by the labour party.
80

Ronnie Ray,

glasgow 06/10/2008 10:28:53
#84 read #80
81

The barfly,

Orkney 06/10/2008 10:36:29
All this talk about new alcohol laws, price reforms almost makes me choke on my pint. Thank you Alec
82

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 10:36:37
74 Ghengis McCann, Edinburgh 06/10/2008 09:59:23
The SNP's daft notion that they can legislate unhealthy and antisocial behaviour out of existence...

What else is legislation for if not to curb "unhealthy and antisocial behaviour". Nobody seriously imagines that anti-social behaviour can be eradicated completely. But where there is a big problem, with huge social and economic costs, even a relatively small impact on behaviour can return significant benefits.
83

Snowy Bottles,

Norway! 06/10/2008 10:41:00
Something has to be done to lessen Scotland's Alcohol problem! It really is nothing to be proud of! Don`t see why there should be a legal challenge from the EU as In Sweden you can only buy strong alcohol (anything stronger than beer) in Government owned shops with a high fixed price and these measures fall short of that.
84

The Tin Man,

06/10/2008 10:41:05
#87 Ronnie

So you are really in favour of the Nanny State ethos, but you believe that Nannyism from one party is better than from another.

I fail to see how the proposed legislation would alter people's attitude to intoxication. If you are in favour of going down this route, then you should stand up and say that you want the price of alcoholic drinks quadrupled.
85

walter,

06/10/2008 10:51:53
The assertion that the SNP are at least trying to do some thing about the situation that alcohol has on society when Labour has done nothing about that situation is made yet more amendments to existing legislation have been made since Labour came to power than had been made since the Acts were introduced.
Here's a wacky idea (I believe it is the way the Tories want to go) enforce with more vigour the existing laws.

Also why is it that if an individual or organization is critical of the SNPs policies they are automatically connected