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12 months ago Gordon Brown was riding high – but just look at him now



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Published Date: 04 August 2008
A YEAR ago, it was all so different. Gordon Brown, brimming with confidence after his sure-footed handling of a summer of floods and terror attacks, returned from a trip to the United States to general acclaim. Unlike his predecessor, Tony Blair, he was no poodle to President Bush, commentators gushed.
In Scotland, his close ally Wendy Alexander had a clear run at the Labour leadership and seemed ready to give Alex Salmond a real challenge. At Westminster, David Cameron's Conservative Party was in turmoil after the sacking of an A-list candidate. A
nd so, a year ago this week, talk of a snap election to cement Mr Brown's position began. Roll forward 12 months and it is hard to imagine Mr Brown – holed up in his holiday cottage – was not grimacing at a whole new raft of damaging headlines yesterday. There was a leaked memo from Mr Blair criticising Mr Brown's leadership of the Labour Party, a report of former Cabinet minister Stephen Byers sticking the knife in, suggestions that the Labour leadership election in Scotland was descending into name-calling and personal attacks – and a resurgent Tory Party urging the Prime Minister to call an election the Tories believe his party cannot win. Chris Grayling, the shadow cabinet secretary, said: "The Labour Party is clearly split right down the middle, with some people backing Brown and others trying to knife him.

"We have a government in chaos at a time when Britain faces serious challenges. We can't go on like this for another 18 months. We need a general election sooner rather than later."

Brown supporters are demanding he sacks the Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, for what many consider an open leadership challenge. Ladbrokes has cut Mr Miliband's odds of taking over from 9/4 to 2/1.

There were reports last night that a group of unnamed Labour ex-ministers plans to fill a "vacuum" at the heart of government – by setting out a list of four or five major initiatives which would draw a clear line between Labour and the Conservatives.

One of the group said Mr Brown had "become more obsessed with the leadership than with running the country".

The fact that three Cabinet ministers – Harriet Harman, John Denham and Alistair Darling – felt the need to write to a national paper pledging their confidence in Mr Brown is seen as a sign of his weakness.

"It's not the sort of thing that happens if you are a genuinely strong leader," said Professor John Curtice, a leading British political analyst from Strathclyde University.

A poll has suggested replacing Mr Brown would do nothing for Labour's fortunes, with 40 per cent would be less likely to vote Labour if he was replaced, but 38 per cent less likely if he stayed.

However, Prof Curtice believes Mr Brown is the problem and that in the heady days of August 2007 the seeds of destruction could be found.

"It's easy to say this in hindsight, but the subtext of the story of last summer shows where the problems lay," he said.

"His popularity was based on surprise that he had been able to make quick decisions in crises, but the Brown bounce was not nearly as good in polling terms as it was for other leaders."

He pointed out that Mr Brown's weaknesses were highlighted by Northern Rock's collapse, the rising cost of living and 10p tax rate crises.

"What happened since, particularly with bottling the election in October, is that his weaknesses have come to the fore – he takes too long to make a decision, even longer to unmake a bad one, such as scrapping the 10p tax band and he is a poor communicator.

"You have to wonder why it took so long for the government to accept that hikes in fuel tax were unacceptable and weren't going to happen. They ended up being cancelled in by-elections and it looked like his hand had been forced."

Prof Curtice suggested MPs, 90 per cent of whom nominated Mr Brown as leader, now wondered "if they made the greatest political blunder ever".

The damage can be seen in the polls. Instead of enjoying a nine-point UK lead over the Conservatives, as he did in August 2007, Mr Brown now has a 21-point deficit. In Scotland the SNP has turned his 14-point lead in a Westminster election intentions into a 14-point deficit.

Publication of Mr Blair's secret memo, written last autumn after Mr Brown backed away from a snap election, intensified the pressure. Mr Blair has avoided public criticism of his successor and his office said he remained "100 per cent supportive of Gordon Brown and the government". But his private concerns may be seen as a green light for Blairites to push for change.

In the memo, Mr Blair accused Mr Brown of playing into Conservative hands with a "lamentable" and "fatal" strategy of disowning the New Labour legacy of a decade in power.

In trying to distance himself from the Blair era by renouncing "spin" and promising to be honest, Mr Brown "dissed our own record" and effectively accepted Tory propaganda, the memo warned.

It said he had "junked the TB (Tony Blair] policy agenda but had nothing to put in its place". The document emerged as Blair ally Mr Byers said Labour had "a mountain to climb" to win the next election, but had come forward with only "a multitude of small policies and worthy initiatives that are more suited to a Sunday afternoon stroll".

Meanwhile, Tom McCabe, who ran Ms Alexander's campaign, condemned Westminster Labour of arrogance and failing to understand devolution.

This followed demands by leadership candidate Andy Kerr for lottery money to be returned to Scotland. Similar comments were made by Mr Gray last week. And both, along with Cathy Jamieson, the third candidate, have suggested far greater independence for the Scottish Labour Party.

Leadership hopefuls warned over insults

THE Labour Party in Scotland has been warned that it will tear itself apart if the leadership election continues to be an exercise in back-stabbing and insults.

The warning came from Hugh Henry, the campaign manager for one of the three contenders, Cathy Jamieson, after a series of personal attacks on her from supporters of Andy Kerr, one of her two rivals.

Mr Kerr's backers had likened a victory by the left-wing Ms Jamieson to going back to the caves in terms of pushing Labour's agenda forward. But on a day where Ms Jamieson called for parties to get together to sort out the problems of alcohol in Scotland, her campaign manager vented his fury at the comments.

"We really need this election to concentrate on the battle of ideas and issues," said Mr Henry. "If we start this back-stabbing we will tear the party apart."

In a busy weekend, Mr Kerr also issued a veiled attack on Gordon Brown taking lottery money from Scotland to pay for the London Olympics. He said £150 million should be given to pay for the 2014 Glasgow Commonwealth Games.

It was further evidence of all three leadership contenders wanting to distance themselves from Mr Brown and London Labour. Iain Gray last week also said lottery money and prisons money should be returned.

Just in case you had forgotten, it is also exactly a year since the phrase 'credit crunch' entered our collective consciousness

A YEAR ago this week the dreaded words "credit crunch" became headline news – and a worldwide problem. Few imagined that it would develop into the worst global financial crisis since the 1930s.

What began as a deepening crisis over problem loans in America's housing market travelled with remorseless force across the entire financial world. Stock markets round the world began to topple. But even as the falls steepened in the opening days of August there seemed little to concern Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Chancellor Alistair Darling. All that changed with the run on Northern Rock.

The bank was forced to go cap-in-hand to the Bank of England as wholesale funds dried up. Confidence evaporated. Lengthening queues of depositors outside branches – the first run on a UK bank in 140 years – compelled immediate action. Darling had to offer solid guarantees that depositors' money was safe. But the impression left was of a government and a Chancellor out of their depth.

Months of dithering ensued over whether to sell Northern Rock to a rival or take it into public ownership. Brown finally plumped for the latter – driving a huge hole through his own 'golden rules' on government debt.

Across the economy the supply of credit has tumbled, mortgage lending has plunged and banks are having to set aside billions of pounds in bad debt provisions. Their shares have crashed. And the FTSE100 overall is down almost 20 per cent.

Mortgage lending has fallen to the lowest level since October 2000 – a total of £3.1 billion was lent in June, well below the £9.9 billion witnessed in June 2007. Mortgage approvals have plunged with only 165,000 new loans agreed during June, almost two-thirds down on the level a year earlier.

Growing numbers of people are unable to secure finance to get on the housing ladder. First-time buyers and those with stretched incomes have been the worst hit.

Although average house price inflation began to slow before August 2007, the onset of the credit crunch intensified the decline and turned the predicted slowdown into a full-on downturn.

At the start of August last year, the average house price stood at approximately £183,898, according to the Nationwide. Today that figure is £169,316 – an annual fall of 8.1 per cent.

Last week Andy Hornby, chief executive of HBOS, warned the house prices may fall between 15 and 20 per cent by the end of next year, with no recovery expected until 2010.

The house building industry, pole-axed by the slump in mortgage lending, has had to mothball sites and make thousands redundant. Consumer confidence, rattled by falling house prices, has fallen to the lowest since 1983.

The credit crunch is not the only malign force that has blown across the UK. Rising food and fuel costs have driven the Consumer Price Index – the official measure of inflation – from 1.8 per cent in August 2007 to 3.8 per cent today – well above the government's target of 2 per cent. More worrying is the rise in the all-items Retail Price Index to 4.6 per cent – and with a 35 per cent increase in gas bills still to work through.

The price of food has risen sharply over the past 12 months. Eggs are now a third more expensive than this time last year, while cheese is up 15.8 per cent and milk and bread are up by 13 per cent.

The price of oil has soared 91 per cent since this time last year. Last August the price of a litre of unleaded was 96.5p. The figure is now £1.17.

Latest figures show that gross domestic product grew by just 0.2 per cent between April 2007 and June this year – the lowest period of growth for three years – and with every prospect of recession ahead. Between the same period in 2006 and 2007, the growth rate was a much healthier 2.3 per cent.

Britain is now on the brink of a recession – defined as two quarters (six months) of negative growth. Some even warn that we could be heading for years of low growth.

Bill Jamieson



The full article contains 1947 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 August 2008 11:35 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Labour Party
 
1

ay! 'em two.,

04/08/2008 00:07:01
i like to be first to comment cos it makes me the cleverest - i will have all those that disagree with me deleted.

yours,

ay! 'em two
2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 00:13:23

Poor old Gordon, well that's how the, 'Cookie Crumbles'

Soon forgotten about and the History Books wont make deal out of him.
3

,

04/08/2008 00:26:13
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4

Conan the Librarian™,

04/08/2008 00:28:06
3
You are old enough to vote?
5

,

04/08/2008 00:32:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
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6

,

04/08/2008 00:35:56
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7

Conan the Librarian™,

04/08/2008 00:40:32
6
Evening Alberto.

Have you seen AM2's website?

Rather too full of links to the NI form of "Unionism" for my taste.

ps. I missed Meths grand exit; what annoyed him?

This time;-)
8

Iainbroch,

Moray 04/08/2008 01:08:34
What a difference a year makes?

Credit Crunch then credit crunch now! Liebour back stabbing and infighting then and the same now!Liebour losing elections and credbility then and losing the same now!

Seems like nothing has changed except in the little mind on Maddox!
9

Jimmy Le Pie,

04/08/2008 02:38:16
Don't worry all you New Labour Sleaze supporters.

Everything will be alright after "Britishness Day"

The SNP and Tory support will melt away.

Union Jack flags and t-shirt sales will go through the roof.
Street parties will give the electorate the 'feel good factor'

I'm organising our street party - bunting, balloons, fireworks and loads of British Pies and Morris Dancing.
Portraits of Comrade Broon displayed everywhere.

What a joyous day it will be, whenever it is.

Yes, all will be well!

Oh happy Britishness Day
10

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 04/08/2008 02:53:19
After checking the date I had to check I was on the Hootsman site I do not believe it.
Have we had a road to Damascus event that I missed?

No second paragraph started to reveal all up popped “Wendy Alexander” then we see the carving knife being sharpened, “David Madox” carving his way through that “socialist Party based at Milbank House” and SLAB.

The “Hootsman” will have to be on the winning side so to-morrow another article about the Gray-men from Milbank House
11

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 04/08/2008 03:10:50
Can I get prof. Curtice's job? It's the art of stating the obvious.

Here's my first attempt.

Labour is doomed.
12

henrymanchester,

UK 04/08/2008 03:35:37
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Until Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England are finally free of the grip of the corpse of the British empire and self governing we'll all continue to suffer weak and evil leaders like Blair, Brown, Milliband and Cameron.

Down with Britain and may we all be free of the old empire's corpse soon!
13

Julian.,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 04:23:35
#12,

Typical nationalist sweeeping statement.

So Thatcher and Churchill were weak leaders?

And of the ones you mentioned, only one could be judged to be a weak leader of this country.

But if we're talking about leaders of parties, I seem to remember some guy named Swinney;-)
14

,

04/08/2008 05:33:08
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15

grandmaof12,

Fleming Island 04/08/2008 06:03:36
What can I say,they are all morons God help us all
16

Scotindy,

Los Angele 04/08/2008 06:53:17
The liebour party are in TOTAL MELTDOWN. I cannot find the time to register the amount of PROMISES we will do for you Scotland.And yet nothing, they have been in power in Scotland for the last 60 years,and they have THE PRODUCE OF NOTHING....
17

Teamdroid,

04/08/2008 07:05:36
Front page of the Scotsman website has more stories about the impending political death of Gordon Brown, and the sad death of Alexander Solzhenitsyn.

Both of these men wrote books about courage. Only one of them actually had any.
18

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 04/08/2008 07:20:47
Get a life fellahs! This is Summer! This is the press Silly Season. The teenage scribblers left at home when mummy and daddy go to Ibiza for the three esses are grasping at straws. Relax. Things will be back to normal in a few weeks. GB will still be the glowering presence. The midgies who try to bite him will have vanished.

We might all wish things would be otherwise of course.
19

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 04/08/2008 07:36:59
So Blair thinks ditching spin & forsaking the TRUTH should have been the Liebore way forward & that Maggie shouldn't have dissed His Way?

Sums those bunch of losers up perfectly.
20

,

04/08/2008 07:43:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
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21

Citylocal Fife,

04/08/2008 07:46:05
#14

Spot on - couldn't agree more. He has moved an immense amount of debt off the balance sheet so *he* looks good, but the payback will go on for generations.
22

Jay Kay,

04/08/2008 07:48:01
#14 Dougie, no he will go down in history as the last ever PM ,c'mon independence, we couldnt do any worse than the fat cat sleeze attempting at every turn to try and rescue the Union. Sorry the horse is dead mate. The people have you sussed out, Nuslaver are liars, cheats, swindlers, theifs, only interested in their own expense accounts and trying to see how much more damage they can do before they get the boot.

Selling of the power companies to France and Spain, even Thatcher wouldnt have swallowed that one old boy.

Brown and Co need to go, we need to take back our country, thats Scotland not the UK, Icouldnt give a damn about England they have had it good for long enough, then begin to and rule it for the people, get rid of the Eu and Human rights, bring back corporal and Capitol punishment, Build a new American style Jail and start to stick those who commit the type of violent crimes we have been seeing over the last few weeks in jail for life, thats a minimum of 40 years without parole. See how many stabbings we have then, caught carrying a knife, 5 years HARD LABOUR. Not New Labour. Oh and as for the bl**dy do gooders, your free to leave any time you like. Try spending more of your time dealing with victims of crime not the Bl**dy perputrators. Your idealisms are all f*cked up.
23

Guga II,

Rockall 04/08/2008 08:02:25
#7 Conan. What's the URL for AM Squared's website?
24

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 04/08/2008 08:12:18
At last the population has cottoned on to the SLEASE man, prudence bow out like a man, and give Mr Alexander a chance. Wendy will guide him.
25

John S,

04/08/2008 08:24:52
#23:Guga II, - www.scottishunionist.com
26

Lesley McDade,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 08:30:40
His problem exists in the Ministry of Justice - sort that out PROPERLY - and he can straighten his backbone. Gaelic proverb: Bathaidh toll beag long mhor.
27

voltaire's janny,

04/08/2008 08:38:58
22

I think you'll find the loonies on 9/11 already tied capitol (sic) punsihment and look what happened there!

28

voltaire's janny,

04/08/2008 08:39:19
punishment - sheesh - learn to type
29

bluehead,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 09:15:53
the whole of the labour goverment should be neatly lined up on a short pier, then on command,be ordered to
take a long walk,when you hear the last splash,everyone
can let of a sigh of relief!!!!!
30

Anglofile,

04/08/2008 09:17:48
I have always thought of brown as a total "punt".

But then again, my spelling is bad as well!!!!
31

scottish person,

paisley 04/08/2008 09:26:47
Julian 13
Yes Churchill and the witch thatcher were weak leaders for Scotland. Thatcher destroyed business in Scotland and churchill destroyed Scottish lives at Dunkirk. Check your history before you join the english masses of churhill and thatcher lovers.
This is not typical SNP propoaganda, this is fact.
32

scottish person,

paisley 04/08/2008 09:30:04
So Hugh Henry is backing cathy jameson. No luck cathy!
He destroyed paisley, get in line cathy.
33

,

04/08/2008 09:31:10
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34

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 04/08/2008 10:02:32
Gordon Is a Moron...
35

snoozyowl,

Wales 04/08/2008 10:16:53
If Andy Hornby of HBOS really thinks house prices will recover in 2010, he is dreaming a self-serving bankers' dream. Yes, they will fall (and need to) but why an increase later? The underlying structure of the UK economy has just been through a tough step change, with energy costs soaring and manufacturing slumping. Our government is sized for a much stronger economy but of course will not be slimmed down to a more sensible level. Our Euro exchange rate is a major disaster and banks do not have the funds to lend, even for prudent lending, let alone the cynical bonus-driven larking around with sub-primes that has been the norm until recently. My guess is that the economy will remain a disaster for several years, and that our credit-supported lifestyle will continue to decline until we reach our sustainable level within the world economy. That will not be a nice experience and despite demand pressures, I do not expect house prices to be going up any time soon. In fact until we rebuild our economy. Maybe in 2018?
36

Brian Hill,

04/08/2008 10:24:24
There is no question that the Scottish Labour leadership is now dancing to the nationalist tune. Whether it's too little too late for them is yet to be seen.

But the mold has been broken.

The concept of creating an SNP mark 2 is real. Labour's decades old unionist mindset has been broken, light and fresh air are allowing Labour intellects to see and acknowledge facts which they have suppressed for 60 years.

Anything can and will happen now and it will all be to Scotland's benefit.

The mold has been broken, the tipping point reached, the point of no return passed, the UK will never be the same again.
37

Guga II,

Rockall 04/08/2008 10:26:30
25 John S.

Thanks John. Given that he's Irish, it's a strange name.
38

Brian Hill,

04/08/2008 10:28:23
The mold has been broken....and so has my spelling: mould :)
39

Guga II,

Rockall 04/08/2008 10:36:13
#25 John S.

Just had a look at AM Squared's site. He really is quite rabid. I'd still like to know how he can run a site with that name when he is Irish. That is quite deceptive and misleading. then again, that is the norm for him.
40

,

04/08/2008 10:41:04
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41

,

04/08/2008 10:43:43
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42

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/08/2008 10:49:40
AM2's website is a vanity project. It's plain to see that, given unrestricted air-time, he is even more extreme than on these sites. A thoroughly disagreeable person who is blind to any view other than his own.
43

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 04/08/2008 10:59:43
"Riding high"?

In someone's imagination possibly?
44

Boggle fey the Bog,

04/08/2008 11:00:04
35 snoozyowl,Wales 04/08/2008 10:16:53

Quite agree with you on that snoozy, the UK govs own advisers reckon 2015 at the earliest before house prices reach the same level as last year, and if we factor inflation in then it could be 2025 before there is any actual 'real term' increase in house values.

As for rebuilding the economy, there are now hundreds if not thousands of unfinished houses in the UK, given the shortage of housing in general, the government could 'kick start' the economy again by taking over these projects and completing them as 'states housing', this would help to alleviate the 'homeless problem' and at the same time reduce the number of unemployed and generate tax income.

But then again maybe that is being 'to socialist' for a 'Socialist Party'!!!
45

,

04/08/2008 11:03:14
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46

Phil C,

04/08/2008 11:08:10
12 months ago Gordon Brown was a numpty- nothing's changed!
47

,

04/08/2008 11:10:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
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48

brownlie,

04/08/2008 11:18:36
Message for AM2

I know from your previous posts that you will be interested in the following.

On a recent holiday to Harris I bought a key-ring. Innocent enough, you might think but then events took a sinister turn when I noticed that the key-ring said Harris, Scotland instead of the more correct Harris, Britain.

But worse was to follow - I then noticed that the key-ring carried a Saltire emblem - an obvious subliminal SNP propoganda stunt as I'm sure you, and Lord George Foulkes, will agree.

However, to counteract this I bought a couple of stickers which said "Saor Alba, chan'eil AM2 glic" which a local, Mrs MacChatterer, translated for me as "Visit AM2's site - he is pure dead brilliant".

I have placed these stickers in a prominent position on my Ferrari and Range Rover so you can expect of plethora of hits on your new web-site.
49

Yeah1,

04/08/2008 11:20:09
#22

"he will go down in history as the last ever PM"

What are you talking about? Brown isn't going to be the last ever PM, where on earth did you get that ridiculous idea from? Clearly the UK/England will have plenty of other PM's after him.

Even if you are referring to him being Scotland's last PM then you are again incorrect - should the SNP get a referendum in 2010 and should that referendum vote yes to independence, then it will take at least 2-5 years for Scotland to officially become independent, so Scotland will be guaranteed to have at least one more PM after Brown.

"get rid of the Eu and Human rights, bring back corporal and Capitol punishment, Build a new American style Jail"

Your hopes for an independent Scotland to do any of the above are quite frankly ludicrous - If Scotland becomes independent under the SNP they will join the EU as soon as possible, and they will not get rid of human rights or bring back corporal punishment - in many ways the SNP are more socialist and liberal than labour.
50

Yeah1,

04/08/2008 11:28:12
#43

"'Riding high'? In someone's imagination possibly?"

erm....no. If you had bothered to read the rest of the article before commenting you would have seen that he actually was 'riding high' this time last year.

As the article says, in August 2007 Labour had a nine-point UK lead over the Conservatives and in Scotland they had a 14-point lead over the SNP in Westminster election intentions.

I would call those facts rather than 'someone's imagination' wouldn't you?
51

Matt there,

somewhere 04/08/2008 11:29:13
31 scottish person

So, only people from Scotland died at Dunkirk? No Irish? Welsh (Cymraeg), English, Americans, Canadians, Indians, Australians, Africans, etc?
52

The Strategist,

04/08/2008 11:29:37
#49

Hmmm.. Now let me think. Which countries still have advanced automotive manufacturing companies, electronics and other high tech companies? Oh yes, Germany, France and others in the EU.

But which country has depended more and more on a corrupt and greedy financial services sector, high house prices and ultra high credit levels leading to record household debt and a record trade deficit.

Oh yes ... That the UK isn't it...
53

The Strategist,

04/08/2008 11:29:37
#49

Hmmm.. Now let me think. Which countries still have advanced automotive manufacturing companies, electronics and other high tech companies? Oh yes, Germany, France and others in the EU.

But which country has depended more and more on a corrupt and greedy financial services sector, high house prices and ultra high credit levels leading to record household debt and a record trade deficit.

Oh yes ... That the UK isn't it...
54

Yeah1,

04/08/2008 11:34:47
#52

Did you mean to reply to someone else's post, because your reply has nothing whatsoever to do with my post (#49)....
55

Nikostratos,

04/08/2008 11:37:36
#47 Gugga

Am2 has a right go at you perhaps you should sue him..but then you would probably lose .
56

Nikostratos,

04/08/2008 11:42:35
Dunno! what the nats are crowing about there are still more pro-union votes than pro-independence votes out there in the real world......

57

Guga II,

Rockall 04/08/2008 11:42:51
#48.

I have a car sticker that reads:

AM Squared falbh bod ceann

and another one that reads:

Nikostratus falbh bod ceann
58

Boggle fey the Bog,

04/08/2008 11:46:39
55 Nikostratos,04/08/2008 11:37:36

Hey, just hold that a thought minute Niko, even me, a Rampant Scottish Nationalist, has had a go at Guga, don't give him ideas he might sue me ;-))
59

Yeah1,

04/08/2008 11:49:43
#57

"falbh bod ceann"

Speak English would you?

Only 1.1% of the Scottish population can understand that irrelevant and outdated language so if you want to get your message across then speak in a language that can be understood.

I suppose you are one of those people who agree with the BBC wasting £10m of taxpayers money on a gaelic channel too are you?

That money would be far better served going towards trying to get the rights for Scotland's football matches than being wasted on an irrelevant and exclusive channel that only a tiny percentage of people in Scotland can understand.
60

Scotland to prosper...,

04/08/2008 11:52:34
"In Scotland, his close ally Wendy Alexander had a clear run at the Labour leadership and seemed ready to give Alex Salmond a real challenge."

Is Mr Maddox trying his hand at comedy writing?
61

European Scot,

04/08/2008 11:58:32
56 Nikostratos

" Dunno! what the nats are crowing about there are still more pro-union votes than pro-independence votes out there in the real world...... "

Now let's not forget all those Independence supporters in each of the Unionist Parties.
People vote on the basis of Party loyalty, not on loyalty to country.
Only a referendum will specifically address this one.
Mustn't give the wrong impression !
62

brownlie,

04/08/2008 11:58:51
59 Yeah

Is yeah English or American slang? Amadan gorach.
63

Evia,

04/08/2008 11:59:44
9
Jimmy Le Pie

I'll come to your street party if we are allowed to use Gordy's portraits for target practice.
64

Guga II,

Rockall 04/08/2008 12:03:18
I see I'll have to get a new car sticker for Yeah1.
65

,

04/08/2008 12:04:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
66

Yeah1,

04/08/2008 12:05:36
#62

"Is yeah English or American slang?"

I assume its American. Why? What relevance is that?

At least the vast majority of the Scottish population (apart from those who can't speak English) would understand when you say 'yeah' to them.

Only 1.1% of the Scottish population understand 'Amadan gorach', 'falbh bod ceann' or anything else from that irrelevant language (apart from obvious words like Alba).

More people in Scotland speak Polish or Urdu than gaelic, it is a completely irrelevant language and should go the way of other historic languages like pictish or gaulish which are now extinct.
67

Yeah1,

04/08/2008 12:12:38
#65

"At one point over a third of the people living in Scotland spoke Gaelic, out other languages were Middle Scots, Latin and English."

At one point most of Scotland also spoke Pictish. Should we also encourage children to speak that language and spend £10m on a pictish channel?

"You poor soul, imagine being so so completely uninterested in your countries indigenous language that you would treat it so dismissively."

Gaelic is an irrelevant and historic language and should be treated as such - words and records etc of gaelic should be kept in museums and libraries where they belong.

Money should not be wasted on a 'gaelic channel' which can be understood by only 1.1% of the population.

"It must really annoy you to see money spent on encouraging children to speak Gaelic. You poor deluded philistine."

It does annoy me to see resources wasted on teaching children gaelic when it would be far more useful to teach them mandarin or spanish - languages that they could use to speak to billions of people worldwide rather than a language that they could use to speak to 60,000 people, none of whom even speak it as a first language.
68

ptdoug,

Ystad 04/08/2008 12:14:19
Gordon Brown is giving Scots a bad name. His grovelling behaviour as he attempts to win the hearts and minds of middle England is cringeworthy and embarrassing.

What we are witnessing now are the twilight days of the once great Labour party.

The idealists of yesteryear have been replaced by trough guzzling careerist chancers.

The evolution of ... say... George Robertson... from socialist to Lord....CND activist to General secretery of NATO (the most powerfull nuclear armed military allience on the planet)... says it all really. What a weasel.

And when a Labour PM can contemplate for a moment honouring Thatcher with a state funeral...not to mention having her round for tea and jollies !!! ???

The sooner this cabal of dishounerable confidence tricksters are consigned to the anals ( mis-spelling deliberate) of history the better.

Now, (off topic)...

Who would you prefer to have as Scotlands closest neighbours, geographicly speaking

Vote in the poll at:

www.cybernatcentral.

blogspot.com

69

Nectar,

Leaf 04/08/2008 12:16:43
"The price of oil has soared 91 per cent since this time last year. Last August the price of a litre of unleaded was 96.5p. The figure is now £1.17."

Er, it's been a while since I last did any proper maths, but isn't that a load of rubbish?
1% of £1.17=1.17p
Price of oil in Aug 08 (117p) minus price of oil Aug 07 (96.5pp)=20.5p.
20.5 divided by 1.17p= A 17.5% increase, no?
70

brownlie,

04/08/2008 12:17:59
66 Yeah

Apart from knowing what Alba means if you use the expression "Smashing" "whisky" "solace" etc etc you are speaking Gaelic. Congratulations!
71

Yeah1,

04/08/2008 12:29:50
#70

"Apart from knowing what Alba means if you use the expression "Smashing" "whisky" "solace" etc etc you are speaking Gaelic. Congratulations!"

Yes very good, there are plenty of words and phrases we use today in modern language from all sorts of other 'dead' languages. Should we also teach those languages to children too, and waste £10m on a tv channel for them also?

I notice no one has come up with any arguments as to why money and resources should be wasted on an irrelevant historic language that only a tiny percentage of the Scottish population speaks.

Why not spend a bit of money on preserving gaelic in a museum or resource centre and then spend the rest on something relevant such as teaching children a modern language, or getting Scotland's football matches for terrestrial tv?
72

Nikostratos,

04/08/2008 12:36:14
#61 European Scot

yes well we might find out one day...The one point i would make is AM29(scottish unionist) is under the illusion a 'unionist' will accept any elected Government even a conservative one.

http://www.scottishunionist.com/search/label/Conservative%20Party

"But in fact, any committed Unionist, of any party-political hue or none, will acknowledge the legitimacy of whichever party the British public elects. As unionists, we willingly pool sovereignty with the rest of the UK (and indeed within the EU) for the sake of the greater good - as level a playing field as possible, stability, security, and so on."


Not so sure about that one meself.
73

brownlie,

04/08/2008 12:41:34
71 Yeah

Would it surprise you to know that Gaelic speaker are the most grammatically correct speakers of English.

I would suggest that giving children - or anyone else interested in doing so - the opportunity to learn a language, thus increasing their cultural knowledge, is somewhat more important than being able to watch a football match.

Perhaps if Gordon Brown was more aware of Scottish culture he would be more aware of the hopes and aspirations of the Scottish nation.
74

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 04/08/2008 12:43:50
Yeah1

That argument has been lost. Get over it.

Away and play with AM2.

Is toigh le bo sputach bo sputach eile.
75

GM,

04/08/2008 12:55:57
Is there a connection anywhere, do you think, that AM2 'resigns' from the Scotsman forums, starts up his own blog where he openly quotes contributors here, whilst at the same time gets his own complete history of posts removed?

Could it be that he doesn't want anyone quoting some of his own 'choice' contributions over the last 18 months or so?


I also assume that on his 'balanced' blog, only rabid nationalist abuse will be posted and no rabid unionist abuse?

Yup, I s'pose its the last throw of the dice for him - as he desparately seeks new and exciting ways to promote his beloved union. Talk about flogging a dead horse!
76

Yeah1,

04/08/2008 13:09:04
#73 brownlie

"I would suggest that giving children - or anyone else interested in doing so - the opportunity to learn a language, thus increasing their cultural knowledge, is somewhat more important than being able to watch a football match."

Yes as I have already stated several times, the money should be spent on teaching children a relevant, modern language that will actually be useful to them in the future (such as Mandarin or Spanish), rather than a 'dead' irrelevant language.

#74 Am Balach

"That argument has been lost. Get over it. Away and play with AM2."

Yes very persuasive, you offer a lot of insightful comments as to why money and resources should be wasted on an irrelevant language.

Just because the 'gaelic mafia' have 'won' the argument for now doesn't mean anyone should stop arguing against the waste of taxpayer's money. I'm sure if a referendum was held asking the Scottish population whether £10m should be spent on a gaelic channel a massive percentage would say no.

Not sure why you assume my opposition to taxpayer's money being wasted on a pointless language is in anyway connected to the unionist views of AM2.

Just because I don't believe money should be wasted on an irrelevant language doesn't mean I don't support independence.
77

,

04/08/2008 13:12:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
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78

N B,

04/08/2008 13:19:10
What worries me most about Politicians is the fact that some of them may actually believe their own rhetoric. In Brown's case he may well have convinced himself of his duty to serve to the extent that he will try to cling-on to the PM job no matter what happens. This is a problem in that it will be bad for his health, bad for his family and bad for his reputation. It all went wrong for him when he planned to hold a snap election to endorse his mandate to govern but pulled out because of the opinion polls; since then he has been a broken man.
79

European Scot,

04/08/2008 13:19:53
72 Nikostratos

" But in fact, any committed Unionist, of any party-political hue or none, will acknowledge the legitimacy of whichever party the British public elects. As unionists, we willingly pool sovereignty with the rest of the UK (and indeed within the EU) for the sake of the greater good - as level a playing field as possible, stability, security, and so on."

" Not so sure about that one meself."

That all sounds a bit err ....... !
I think I'm with you on that one !

Post Independence, I wouldn't mind seeing a multi-Party effort to push Scotland forward.
Where instead of wasting time trying to fight each other, to politically outdo one another, to concentrate as one body, dedicated to the country's success.
A kind of super coalition, where for five, or ten years, all of the parties agreed on a common aim, a common good, to concentrate on getting the economy right, and of getting a better balance between Social needs, and the hard nosed realities of business needs, commercial success, increased productivity etc.
Actual consensus politics, Utopian perhaps, but it would mean utilising the best talents from each of the Parties for the benefit of the country.
It just seems to me that all the time and energy that has been wasted trying to preserve this outdated Union, and sniping at one another, could be better directed in future, for the common good of Scotland.
80

malcolmcean,

04/08/2008 13:20:09
Post 76:

Spanish and other 'relevant' modernlanguages do not possess something which those 'irrelevant' languages like Gaelic and Latin (and ancient Greek) do: they are fully declined languages.

To b able to navigte you way through them requires a degree of mental acuity which cannot be cultivated with the more rudimentary modern langues.

To oversimplify the matter, learing these declined languages equips one with the necessary depth of knowledge in the language of grammar to be able to deal easily with all the romance, germanic, and eastern languages.

I genuinely feel sorry for you that your ignorance makes you unable to appreciate that the colour and complexity of this still living language, and powerful cultural (at a European, British, and Scottish level) phenomenon, is such a valuable tool for providing our young with a head start in life.

81

tomislav,

Home 04/08/2008 13:26:09
I will never ever forgive him, or Labour, for preventing me from having my say with the EU constitution referendum that we weren't permitted to have. I will never vote Labour again because of that
82

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/08/2008 13:26:38
I'm with Yeah1 on this one.
83

Yeah1,

04/08/2008 13:27:06
#77

"Yeah 1, probably just wishful thinking, but why dont you use your normal moniker AM2 prat."

erm.........you seem to be very confused. If I was this AM2 then I would post as AM2. I am not and never have been AM2:

1. I have always posted as yeah1

2. I am not Irish

2. I live in Scotland and have no connection with Northern Ireland, infact I have never even been there.

Why you think I am this AM2 I have no idea, why on earth do you think I am pro-unionist? I don't know where I posted any pro-unionist arguments? Perhaps you could show me?

You seriously need to calm down and relax and stop having a mental fit. You may hate this AM2 but please direct your vitriol at him. I AM NOT AM2
84

The McKellarator,

04/08/2008 13:29:34
As someone who has sung many fine tunes in the Gaelic, I humbly suggest that Mr Yeah is parping nonsense out of his poop chute.
85

brownlie,

04/08/2008 13:40:30
76 Yeah

That should come in handy when ordering take-aways!

I'm sure it would be no consolation to know that an insignificant poster such as myself do not in any way agree with the posters who call you AM2!

82 Rev Campbell

Considering the derivation and meaning of your name I'm not surprised you are anti-Gaelic.

86

sm753,

04/08/2008 13:42:42
Back to the article...

Prof Curtice's value is in interpreting polls and the like, where he has a lot of credibility.

Now he's coming out with random personal opinions on general politics.

He ought to be careful, as he's opening himself up for the same. This is, after all, a man who bears an uncanny resemblance to Dilbert's Pointy-Haired Boss and who wouldn't be my first choice for general political advice.
87

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 04/08/2008 13:50:10
Who said that 12months ago this shocking non-elected
power and fame seeking impostor was riding high?
His closest wealthy business friends and the media who had a vested interest to retain his servile betrayal off the Scottish Nation and the present dis-united UKs interests?
Him and his "close pal"; former long - haired ambitious pop singer and part time barman Blair, now a multi millionaire must remain the greatest political mystery off the 20th and 21st century; both off whom only achieved their political status due to the gullibility of the average voter.
This man Brown; known as a replica off Stalin whom was rarely ever seen to smile,now possesses a perpetual sham silly grin every time he poses for his photo and hand shaking session his pre-arranged visit takes.
Are we still to remain the must gullible - not only in Europe - but globally; as we descend further and further towards an insignificant Third World Status?
Yes;in my humble opinion!
88

European Scot,

04/08/2008 13:51:36
83 Yeah 1

" ..... as I have already stated several times, the money should be spent on teaching children a relevant, modern language that will actually be useful to them in the future (such as Mandarin or Spanish), rather than a 'dead' irrelevant language."

The language isn't 'dead', if it's still in use, regardless of the numbers involved
The teaching of other languages should also be encouraged, and preferably at an early age, in addition to Gaelic.
However in some parts of Scotland, Gaelic would have a lot more relevance to its young children, than Mandarin, which might be considered at a later stage.
I'm all for minority languages, cultures, and countries, they are a part of the whole, which makes for a diversified, colourful, and more interesting World.
If you can't preserve living elements of your own culture, and history, you really are in a bad way.
I don't speak Gaelic, but it doesn't stop me being really moved by some of the most beautiful Gaelic love songs.
The thought of deliberately destroying something that is a part of Scottish culture and history, is totally unacceptable.
89

Yeah1,

04/08/2008 14:07:23
#88

"The language isn't 'dead', if it's still in use, regardless of the numbers involved".

Yes sorry I should have said 'dying' instead of 'dead'.

"The thought of deliberately destroying something that is a part of Scottish culture and history, is totally unacceptable."

You misunderstand me. I don't want to see gaelic destroyed at all. I am all for preserving gaelic as an important element of Scots history and teaching Scottish children all about it, but that should be done in a history class, not a modern languages class.

Money should be spent on something like a gaelic resource centre or a gaelic section of the Museum of Scotland, rather than on teaching it as a modern language to children.

Also the BBC should not be spending £10m on a TV channel that will be understood by only a tiny percentage of the Scottish population.

Why not spend that money on, for example, a Scottish history channel that would include information about gaelic and its place in Scottish history, and would be able to be watched by everyone in Scotland, not just 1.1% of the population?
90

Yeah1,

04/08/2008 14:16:30
#80

"learning these declined languages equips one with the necessary depth of knowledge in the language of grammar to be able to deal easily with all the romance, germanic, and eastern languages."

If gaelic is such a vital element of grammatical understanding why isn't its teaching compulsory at every Scottish school? It may well help in the learning of other languages but millions of people have learnt other languages without the aid of gaelic.

"powerful cultural (at a European, British, and Scottish level) phenomenon"

Not sure how gaelic is such a powerful cultural phenomenon at a European level when only 1.1% of the Scottish population speak it?

"valuable tool for providing our young with a head start in life."

Again, if learning gaelic is such a 'valuable tool' why isn't its teaching compulsory at all Scottish schools?
91

,

04/08/2008 14:18:29
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