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£320 to park at your own door

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Published Date: 04 February 2009
DRIVERS of so-called "gas guzzlers" in the Capital are set to pay more as transport chiefs press ahead with plans to introduce higher parking charges for the most polluting cars.
The move comes after the scheme won the backing of a public consultation.

Responses to the "Park Green" consultation found a total of 73 per cent of respondents in favour, with 68 per cent of parking permit holders who responded also in support of the scheme.

Under the proposals, owners of vehicles such as Land Rovers and the Citroen C6 would see charges double from the current £160 a year to £320. But drivers of the least polluting vehicles in the outer zones would see their charge fall from £80 to just £15.

Residents would also face higher charges for second vehicles, with a charge of £400 for the most polluting vehicles. Drivers of mid-range cars such as a Vauxhall Vectra would see a fall in the price of a permit from £160 to £130, while there would be no change for drivers of bigger models, such as Saabs and Volkswagen Passats.

The proposals, which go before the council's transport and environment committee next Tuesday, recommend the introduction of a banding system for residents' permits with fees based on CO2 emissions or engine size.

There would also be a £5 administration charge for quarterly or six-monthly permits and a new administration charge for replacements. It is expected that the new charging structure would be phased in gradually.

City leaders sent out more than 60,000 letters to permit holders and residents in the city's controlled parking zones to get their views on the controversial plan.

The question asked was: "Do you agree with dropping the price of residential parking permits for those with less polluting cars and raising the price for more polluting cars?"

Just 1670 people took part, with the majority answering the online survey. There were just 18 written submissions and 47 e-mails in favour, with nine and 38 against respectively.

Councillor Phil Wheeler, the city's transport convener, said: "The large scale of this consultation exercise was an indication as to how important the council consider this scheme to be – and, as the results show, the public quite clearly agree.

He added: "As a local authority, the council has a duty to meet local air quality standards set by the European Union by 2010 and, unless we take action now, we will fail to meet the standards set. With zero carbon emissions, the tram scheme will contribute to the reduction of CO2 but we must consider and introduce other innovative solutions.

"While it is only right that people should be free to choose the vehicle that best meets their needs, it is also reasonable that they should pay the appropriate costs of owning their vehicle which, in turn, should reflect the amount of pollution it creates.

"This initiative will actually result in the council losing a small amount of parking revenue but should help us towards achieving our ultimate goal of improved air quality and a better environment for all."

Last year, the decision to hold a public consultation into the proposals led opposition politicians to accuse the council of kicking the scheme "into the long grass".

The council insists the plans – which will cost around £50,000 a year in lost permit revenues – are not a money-making exercise and claim only 20 per cent of drivers would pay more, while two-thirds of people would see charges go down.

Officials estimate that more than 11,000 people will pay less under the scheme, with just 3348 residents paying more.

There have been warnings from politicians and motoring organisations that the changes do not address the main cause of pollution and could prove unfair to families and disabled people.

Green parking permit schemes are already in place elsewhere in the UK, having first been introduced by the London borough of Richmond Upon Thames in 2007, despite only 49 per cent of residents being in favour.

To check the how your car rates in terms of CO2 emissions log on to www.carpages.co.uk


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1

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 11:55:02
Not enough. Double it.
2

Grumpy,

04/02/2009 11:56:53
Why on earth does anyone living in Edinburgh need a big 4x4 LandRover anyway? Is there that much mud in the Asda car park that a normal saloon couldn't get by?
3

brandy al,

embra 04/02/2009 11:57:35
Disgusting,more money in the councils holiday fund,i have a vintage Jag 140,how will that fare.
4

Hibernia,

04/02/2009 11:58:24
You can use just as much petrol driving a small car fast as you do driving a bigger car sensibley - so charging users of bigger cars more is a nonsense.
5

allknowing,

04/02/2009 12:00:35
Ok, a parked 4x4 produces exactly how much GHGs??? None, not a particle.

However, everyday you have the commuters from Fife and the borders, driving 30 odd miles in their polluting cars not paying a penny.

Stop hitting the residents of Edinburgh with crazy ideas. Parked cars dont pollute!
6

In the sticks,

04/02/2009 12:06:29
so this is another retrospective tax by the government. Its bad enough they did this with VED, taxing you more based on a vehicle you bought before the new tax levels came in, but now they are doing exactly the same thing with parking permits. How much more in fuel duty do these people pay already.
Last time I saw the news all our goverment ministers were getting driven around in gas guzzling Jaguars, Range Rovers etc... but of course this wont affect them because they will either be exempt or can put it down as expenses. One rule for them....
7

jackhobbs,

glasgow 04/02/2009 12:07:09
Oh the dears trying to copy the 'snobby luvvies' of Richmond-upon-Thames. How pathetic having to copy a bunch of losers like that and from the Greater London sewer area as well. Get some Scottish back-bone in you.
8

Cappo Del Monte,

04/02/2009 12:08:46
Que petrol heids usual rant Zzzzzzzzzzz when it comes yawn
9

Foo,

04/02/2009 12:10:51
I live in the countryside and don't pay any parking charge as I have a driveway. My second home (flat)in Edinburgh centre has an underground private car park. I suggest others do the same.
10

,

04/02/2009 12:12:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Liz,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:12:48
"City leaders sent out more than 60,000 letters to permit holders and residents in the city's controlled parking zones to get their views on the controversial plan. "

When was this? I didnt hear anything about it.

I strongly object to charging the second car in a residency more. What about people who live in shared accomodation? Who decides who has to pay the extra fee?

What % of the City's cars require permits anyway? Anyone with a driveway or lives outside the areas can park what they want for no charge, just because someone happens to live near the Centre does not mean they need a car any less.
12

,

04/02/2009 12:13:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

allknowing,

04/02/2009 12:16:02
"flat)in Edinburgh centre has an underground private car park."

You try and get permission to build an underground garage in the New Town. You wont get too far.

Hows Aviemore these days?
14

allknowing,

04/02/2009 12:17:37
#13 you'll find that for the vast majority of people in Edinburgh, its Diesel engines ie Buses and taxis, that cause lung problems, not cars. hence why Edinburgh council STILL refuse to issue data for the air quality around Edinburgh when the buses went on strike.
15

eric-shaun,

Lothian 04/02/2009 12:23:43
#12

I think you'll find you're in my parking space, I was here first.
16

Liz,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:23:57
#15
Add to that, how many of the cars we see driving through around Edinburgh are actually from the permit controlled zones?
So this new so called 'environmental legislation' is going to have minimal effect as most of the pollution comes from cars outside the zone (they have travelled further to get to the City) these new restrictions will have no affect on them.
17

Russell339,

04/02/2009 12:24:06
#4 You clearly didn't attend school for very long. This has nothing to do with the volume of fuel used. It's about emissions of CO2 as per VED. You can see from the figures that most people will end up paying less.

#11 If you have a driveway or residential parking area, you are not parking on the public road so why should you pay to park there? In the city, you need to use the public road, which is owned by all of us, and demand far outstrips supply. If there were no permits, then anyone could park anywhere, and residents would not get priority. Also, no one technically needs a car, it's a luxury item.
18

allknowing,

04/02/2009 12:24:26
FYI
"shows diesel engines for passenger cars producing 16.9 times more particulate matter and over 83% more nitrogen oxides than the petrol equivalents"

Lets start cracking down on the real culprits, not stationary objects creatingm no pollution. It would be akin to slapping a charge on Arthur Seat becuase it creates pollution when it erupts.
19

Fecker,

04/02/2009 12:25:10
I would like to know how many people actually responded to this. Percentages are meaningless in themselves, come on ECC give us the stats.
20

Foo,

04/02/2009 12:25:52
#14

Aviemore? Well fine I guess. I checked the snow conditions today and it seems about half the slopes and open so I imagine business is brisk. Why the interest in Aviemore?

No, I mean my flat had one already built. It's an evil new build. But surely the large car parks offer overnight parking at cheaper rates.

#13 - I commute 25 miles to work. There are no buses that go anywhere near my work.
21

allknowing,

04/02/2009 12:27:50
"Also, no one technically needs a car, it's a luxury item."

Same can be said of buses, taxis, shops, tvs and many other things.

I dont think most people here have an issue with permits, but why charge more for a vechile which isnt creating more pollution?

The charge is for parking, not anythign else. The pollution side of thing is taken care of with the VED and increase in taxes due to increased fuel consumption.
22

,

04/02/2009 12:29:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

In the sticks,

04/02/2009 12:29:34
Russell339

A car that uses more fuel will obviously produce more CO2, the reaction that takes place in the engine is the same in all engines so the reason more CO2 will be produced is because more fuel is being burned. Look at the emissions values for cars and you will find that the larger more uneconomical engines are the ones with the highest emissions.
24

,

04/02/2009 12:29:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
25

Foo,

04/02/2009 12:29:59
#18 I'll have to pull you up on that there, living 25 miles from work, and with no public transport - how do you suggest I get to work without my 'luxury item'?

26

Liz,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:30:20
#18
But my point is that they are claiming that this is in some way for the benefit of the environment.

It quite blatently isnt, someone outside the zones can drive their 4x4 as much as they want - all day every day, someone in the zone may have their 4x4 parked there all day not moving. Which is creating the most pollution?
27

elayne,

04/02/2009 12:31:14
it does get annoying!(family who live 1/4 mile away park 3 4x4s outside my house most days)
28

The Baker,

04/02/2009 12:31:16

City leaders sent out more than 60,000 letters to permit holders and residents in the city's controlled parking zones to get their views on the controversial plan

(£21000)






Just 1670 people took part, with the majority answering the online survey. There were just 18 written submissions and 47 e-mails in favour, with nine and 38 against respectively.
(£12.50 per answer)
29

Russell339,

04/02/2009 12:31:49
#26 Move closer to work, or get a new job.
30

JFW,

New Town 04/02/2009 12:37:04
Anyone in favour of this has the brain power of a single cell creature. What is the supposed aim? - to reduce C02 emissions in the city? So can someone please explain to me how messing with the prices permit holders pay for to park is going to achieve this when the majority of permit holders (due to where they live) don't drive their cars (big or small) very much in the city. Most of the C02 in the city centre is being produced by people driving in from the outskirts or by Buses/taxis, both of which are particularly polluting in this city. On top of this we also have muppets like Phil Wheeler trying to increase parking provision in the city centre to encourage more people to drive in?? How does that not conflict with the idea of reducing C02 being used to justify this complete waste of time and money. Also I find it a bit suspcious that I have 2 addresses in the city centre and I didn't get anything from the council asking me for my opinion on this. This is an completely unfair tax - people who live centrally and who have to park on the street should have the same right to have a car as people who have driveways or who live in the Burbs. I'm completely against this even though I will be slightly better off because I don't have a high c02 car. A simple idea that would reduce c02 and car use in the city is retricting the number of permits per flat to do away with 3,4 & 5 permits for the HMOs full of student, each with a car that they'll use just to drive to the corner shop. From what I see they are the biggest culprits for unnecessary car use in the city centre and most will have trendy little cars that they'll have to pay less for now. This is another example of a complete waste of time and money from our so-called transport experts.
31

Russell339,

04/02/2009 12:38:23
#22 You really need to check up on your stuff here. C02 emissions are also linked to the type of fuel, and the green technology in the vehicle itself. For example, diesel engines for the same volume of fuel would produce less CO2 as diesel is a heavier fraction of oil, and does not burn as efficiently, so less CO2 produced for the same volume. This would also apply to LPG, far less C02 per litre of fuel burned.
32

,

04/02/2009 12:39:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

Sarcasm,

04/02/2009 12:40:02
£320 to park at your own door.
Fantastic value, I'm on the 16th floor.

What's the problem with this, it'll only really hit the fur coat and nae knickers brigade who drive them for show.

See above posts.

Those who need to run them and can afford them will still do so.

Is everyone complaining about this doing so for the good of the common man?
34

Foo,

04/02/2009 12:41:53
#30 - Why would I possibly want to do that?
35

Russell339,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:45:44
#33 It's simple economics at work here. If you have to pay more to own a polluting car, i.e. higher VED, fuel, and parking charges, then more folks might think about a greener option.

Are you seriously suggesting that more CO2 is produced in Edinburgh City Centre by buses and taxis, which make up less than 5% of the traffic? Come on!

This is not about penalising the motorist (most people will pay less), it's about trying to influence the buying decisions to encourage greener motoring. Is that a bad thing? You say this is a tax, last time i checked you don't have a choice when paying tax?
36

Foo,

04/02/2009 12:46:33
31 Gorgie_Tony - It wasn't a week ago that you proclaimed that you only insult people that insult you.

And yet you just called all the car drivers here morons.

Hypocrite.
37

Leithboy,

04/02/2009 12:46:39
If these charges were to go ahead then I would like to think the goverment would liaise with the DVLA.
It would be totally unfair to apply these charges to presently owned cars as they were purchased without knowing of these new implied regulations.
However when it came to renewing your vehicle the public would be aware of the new charges and would buy accordingly.
38

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:47:48
Phil Wheeler, serial incompetent that he is, should know that the great white elephant tram project is increasing CO2 initially and if it starts operating makes no meaningful difference as the power is largely, and will continue to be for a long time, generated by fossil fuels.

Parked cars generate no emissions. Link the charge to the size of the vehicle if you want, so someone daft enough to buy an Audi Q7 pays twice as much as someone with a mini.
39

fruitmachine,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:49:43
I live in-zone and have a car. So does my flat-mate.

I can walk, cycle, bus or drive to work, where I can use a free parking space.

The council have just given me a bigger financial incentive TO DRIVE, as for every other option I leave the car at home, but end up paying for the privelidge.
40

Black Five,

edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:50:04
I sincerely wish these so called greenies would dig a hole and bury themselves.I have not got one of these so called gas guzzlers but that`s their perogitive.I feel that this lot of the green brigade have got too much say with all this tosh of global warming. It`s something that naturally happens every so often.Check the history books.It just gives loony councils and greedy governments an excuse to tax you.
41

In the sticks,

04/02/2009 12:53:07
#38

how is introducing a tax on cars people already own "influencing the buying decisions".
Incase you hadnt noticed, there is a credit crunch on and the last thing people are doing is buying more cars.
Fair enough, make it applicable to all new cars purchased but dont tax people for a car they bought before this idea came into being.
You are then removing the choice option and penalising people for purchases made when this wasnt even a consideration.
42

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:54:23
Why the hell should drivers of stupid, underpowered Euro-boxes pay less than drivers of proper cars?

Everyone should pay the same. regardless of engine size, chassis configuration or fuel consumption---and that applies to car tax as well.

EVERYONE shoud refuse to pay for parking permits until this ridiculous scheme is scrapped.
43

reincarnated,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:55:08
Octane Heid must have the flu.
44

reincarnated,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:55:33
Doh !
45

Russell339,

04/02/2009 12:55:40
#43 Hahahahaha, 'check the history books'??? The last episode of rapid global warming (as we are experiencing now) is thought to have occurred approximately 55 million years ago. You must have a pretty valuable book there !!
46

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:57:44
Gorgie Tony @32 - you clearly don't find city living to your liking - have you considered somewhere more salubrious? Mortonhall, Seafield, or Warriston have excellent facilities.
47

Sister Morag,

Lasswade 04/02/2009 13:02:16
Most 4x4s seem to be driven by airheads who obtained their driving licences from cornflake packets. If they're priced off the roads then those same roads will be safer for the rest of us. So many 4x4s appear to have been supplied without indicators or hand brakes. It's quite sad really - you'd think they'd come as standard at that price.
48

SS,

04/02/2009 13:04:26
As rightly pointed out it'll not make a blind bit of difference.

The wife and I drive a 'gas-guzzler'. Not becasue we need it, because we want to and can afford it. In fact both of us walk to work and we've no kids. We never drive into town (we walk) not that we go into town much these days as the council/trams have made such a hash of the place its depressing. We do however use it regularly at the weekends for going away etc.

So you could say, we don't commute and we don't do the school run so we're not polluting on a daily basis. Simply recreational use at the weekends. Much less than anyone commuting 20 miles a day in any car. But that arguement will not wash with lefie greenie types, but then we're fine with that and don't really listen to the band-wagon jumping folk anyway.

We're content and happy. And to come full circle, raising the fee will not make a blind bit of difference to us. It will only make us even less inclined to vote for this council in the future.
49

Big bob 79,

04/02/2009 13:04:32
Great, another additional charge!... Higher road tax, higher fuel costs, and now another slap for 4x4 drivers, they must feel pretty hard done by now, however I guess the council has to generate income for Edinburgh's trainset.
Foo... I see you comaplaining about this affecting you? With your passionate defence of the Tran system I would have thought you would have used public transport and the new tram system, the trams will run empty of you do not use them, Foo say its not so
50

Niadh,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 13:09:33
#32 Gorgie_tony. Showing your own lack of understanding and ignorance again!!
Look at the usually black fumes coming out of the buses. That is not a good sign compared to the usually clear fumes coming out of a car.
I would also suggest you look up some of the data that is available about the content and effects of diesel fumes. Here's a couple to get you started.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg286.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/mar/11/medicalresearch.pollution
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/diesel-fumes-trigger-heart-attacks-and-strokes-researchers-find-402187.html

If Edinburgh researchers are looking for more people for further research on the last article could you please volunteer. Maybe we'll get lucky.


While I don't see the need for Land and Range Rovers or their ilk in cities myself I can understand the need in Edinburgh. You could go pot holing in some of the roads.
51

Hibernia,

04/02/2009 13:10:52
#18 very kind of you to make presumptions on my level of education - obviously the fact you have a go at another person posting in your message makes you a well educated pratt!
52

Bill MacD,

04/02/2009 13:12:54
Not enough. The sad idiots who think they have to drive huge great tanks around town deserve to be taxed ten times as highly just for being such pathetic losers, quite apart from being penalised for the damage they do to our children's health and safety.

It's funny how it's so often these same twits who also drive around with their fog lights on when there's no fog. They've so little real personality they're like wee show-off kiddies desperate to draw attention to themselves in any way they can. Really really sad.
53

Foo,

04/02/2009 13:16:01
#52 - No, I wasn't complaining. I think you're a bit confused. I just suggested alternatives can probably be found to parking, such as underground car parks, moving to the country or the large private car parks that offer seasons tickets.

But yes, I do use the public transport if I'm out shopping during the day or perhaps if I intend to have a wine when I'm out of an evening. In this respect, the trams will be a godsend. Also, getting to the airport will be a lot easier as I fly usually once a week and don't like to drive out to the airport.
54

Canadianjambo,

Pickering 04/02/2009 13:18:11
Let's call it like it is...Green is just the new excuse to raise taxes and guilt people into accepting it. Nothing being done now, including Kyoto, are reducing greenhouse gas emmissions. It is all just an exercise in wealth redistribution and polititions lining their pockets.
55

SS,

04/02/2009 13:20:47
#55.
Not a pathetic loser, not a twit, never drive with fog lights on (they come on automatically when the car senses it :)), plenty of personality and not a wee show-off kiddie.
Just a normal person who likes driving a big car and happy to pay for it.
56

Big bob 79,

04/02/2009 13:21:02
#56 thank god you had me worried
57

Toast,

04/02/2009 13:22:34
Okay,but lets charge realistic airfare and forget any airport expansion,flights should be at least three times the current price,I very rarely fly but drive a 4x4 for work purposes and am sick of being sc*ewed by a bunch of self-serving incompetent politicians,if everybody had their own personal allowance we could use it as we choose.Anybody who flys more than once a year should pay for the privilage
58

Big bob 79,

04/02/2009 13:24:42
Do you not like using the airlink?. its been inplace since the 1970's?.... If anything the tram will be a step back for you, the airlink had reclining leather seats, the tram will have very few seats as it seems the latest plan is to make space for cyclist to get on not to mention what seats are left will defo not leather or reclining
59

John from Fife,

EDINBURGH 04/02/2009 13:30:36
The best way to encourage drivers to pollute less is to increase the price of fuel,- so why is that so unpopular.
60

Langenburger,

04/02/2009 13:30:40
Nothing about the Edinburgh Permit and CPZ system makes any sense apart from the fact is it is a revenue raiser and this new wheeze is a bully tactic
Our council continually prove that they are inept at all aspects of planning - and they are happy to bully people in the centre and take advantage of people's patience because of the council caused "unofficial" park and ride facilities in Morningside, Corstorphine, etc
61

Cod,

04/02/2009 13:31:52
City 4 x 4 drivers should be shot. Discuss.
62

Cod,

04/02/2009 13:32:17
Bang bang. I shot them down.
63

Incandescent,

04/02/2009 13:32:32
#13 Gorgie_Tony - "...selfish, obnoxious car driver"

Boom! Gotcha! We bit of a slip-up in your persona's there, eh? That just happens to be Jenny MacArthur's favourite phrase.
64

Logie Almond,

04/02/2009 13:44:21
If you want free parking for your car buy a house with a driveway. No one has a right to park on the public highway - it's a privilege which a democratically elected council is quite entitled to either refuse or charge for as it sees fit.
65

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 13:44:50
#67 - Gorgie Tony and Jenny McA getting together? Doesn't bear thinking about - Let's just hope they're too old to breed!
66

Statsman,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 13:52:58
As if this won't be used to plug holes in the council budget. Who was asked anyway? Council consultations tend to be a complete one sided joke.

I am not a fan of off-road vehicles being used in an urban setting but the roads in Edinburgh are such a mess they are becoming ideal.
67

Statsman,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 13:55:43
9 Foo

So you don't pay full Edinburgh council tax but demand those that do pay for trams "cos they look nice"?
68

Incandescent,

04/02/2009 13:56:54
Interesting. No indignant response from G-Tone. He must be pinned-down by a barrage of chips from the local Gorgie school kids.
69

NorT,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 13:57:04
I am just going out to trade in my small vehicle for a gas guzzler just to spite them. How can you call 1670 responses when 60,000 letters were sent out a "majority". Typical of this anti car Council's consultations.
70

Foo,

04/02/2009 13:57:08
#68 - Are you trying to imply that because you drive a hoover you are somehow rivalled only by horses in the trouser dept?

BTW Fiat 500 = mucho polluto

It's crazy to say big cars are for small d***ed men. More like Audi and BMW are.

I drive fast cars because they its a joy to control beautifully engineered machines.
71

Foo,

04/02/2009 14:00:04
#72 - I do pay full council tax. And yeah.
72

Adso,

04/02/2009 14:01:21
In the story it says that only 3348 vehicle owners will be affected by this and have to pay more.

I would be willing to bet that those 3348 vehicles contribute less than 1% probably less than 0.1% of edinburgh's CO2 emissions (please prove me wrong - I am only speculating). So even if we get all of those drivers to change vehicle it will have no impact on the environment.

So what is the point of the parking charge? It can't be anything to do with air quality as this volume of vehicles is not signifcant enough to affect it.

I am neither a 4x4 driver or a permit holder but this can't be about emissions so what is it really about?
73

Hibernia,

04/02/2009 14:04:25
Why is it 4x4 drivers get all the stick, what about all the wee neds with their wee Peugeot 106's and their muckle exhausts creating noise pollution too? Stop being 4x4ists.
74

Big bob 79,

04/02/2009 14:23:18
#77 is clear, the council is short of money and 4x4 drivers are easy tragets
75

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 04/02/2009 14:41:36
4x4s or chelsea tractors as they are known,are just toys to the filthy rich
then you have middle class numpties who drive one,because either royalty/film stars etc have one
it was the same with barbour coats,anglers and gamekeepers wore them
then queen elizabeth 2nd was photographed wearing one with green wellies
the sloan rangers or rich braindead wore them as fashion things
i have seen one in my area driven 100yards to get milk
lazy git
76

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 04/02/2009 14:43:53
ah well in the words of thatchers nazi-norman tebbit get on your bike
77

GJS,

04/02/2009 14:46:34
I am geting sick fed up of people telling other people how to live their lives.

Perhaps their owners take them to the countryside offroad or use them to tow caravans or trailers, and can't afford to run a second smaller car for city use?

Or perhaps they just like the vehicle? Is that allowed?
78

Mpjeasteroad,

Musselburgh 04/02/2009 14:48:09
79 Blog comments and rising. This I think beats the response to the so called public consultation. I wonder why? Could it be that the 60 000 quote is an economy of the truth? Certainly a number of the posts here suggests people who should have been consulted were not.

In addition it would be very interesting to know how many of the so called positive respondents owned a vehicle falling in to the new lower tax category. If so it becomes crystal clear why these individuals responded as they did.

This is a postcode tax. Surely the 'green' consideration is more relevant to those motorists travelling from outwith the city in to it?

79

Jock MacSprog,

04/02/2009 14:52:26
typical mindless superficial green, class war thinking. What if I drive my Landrove 1/10 of the miles that Mr Fiat Punto does ? He is actually creating more pollution, so why is he getting off ??? Also I am single with no kids, therby creating much much less pollution and carbon footprint over my lifetime than the eco warrior green family with 2-3 kids, so why arent they being penalised for having children and creating hugely more pollution than me ??? Stick that in your pipe and smoke it greens.
80

Incandescent,

04/02/2009 14:53:40
The bigger and more impressive the car, the more successful the owner and the busier they are likely to be, and therefore less likely to respond to a CEC "consultation". Parent power forced a hurried u-turn on education budget plans. It's time city car owners made clear to the council the REAL majority opinion.
81

Fecker,

04/02/2009 15:00:47
"park at your own door" chance would be a fine thing. The charge does not even guarantee you a space. Rip off Edinburgh. What it needs is a mass refusal to pay.
82

Starkravingsane,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 15:07:53
You still won't be able to park at your door. It'll depend if anyone else is parked there on their permit in the limited spaces allocated by the council for residents to park anywhere. Very limited spaces.
But the size of some of these vehicles does astound me. I was parked next to something in the Tesco car park that was like a bus. Tinted windows, must have been able to take a football team. Then a mum and child got into it and drove away. I can't think what you'd really need a vehicle (can't really call it a car!) that size in town for, and as I used to go between Fort William and Edinburgh on a regular basis in a Skoda Felicia, I can't think why you'd really need it for distance either. Not in Scotland.
83

hibbydoug,

edinburgh 04/02/2009 15:12:33
This lot in charge of our council couldnae run a message, I also hope all the city vans and trucks are all low emission vehicles.
84

Edinburgh 100,

Musselburgh 04/02/2009 15:25:03
60,000 questionares sent out 2000 replies. The spin is that the majority of the 2000 replies were in favour of the new charges. How the f@@@ can this be spun as a yes vote for the new charges.

Politicians wonder why people have no trust or interest in the political or consultation process when this type of thing happens.

Edinburgh council are more interested in looking for more sources of revenue This is not about green issues no matter how they dress it up.

85

Unimpressed one,

04/02/2009 15:31:11
#38, "This is not about penalising the motorist (most people will pay less), it's about trying to influence the buying decisions to encourage greener motoring."

This has FA to do with the environment and everything to do with tax. Wait until ALL transport is taxed to 'save the planet' and then let's see which idiots support this tripe.
86

Spout,

04/02/2009 16:03:14
There is no way the council sent out 60,000 of these questionnaires. I live in Zone 1 and I certainly didn't receive one!

I think this is hyperbole on behalf of the council - the fact they only received 1,670 responses is because they only sent a fraction of 60,000 questionnaires out!
87

Arrow,

edinburgh 04/02/2009 16:15:32
yes all cars bigger that anything that the powers that be have should be taxed. i'll bet a £ to a pound of racoon sh*t that if you checkled the amount of polution created by passenger transported on public transport is higher then in any private car.
i do not travel by public transport if i can help it because i see the numpties, single mothers and thier brats and jackies waiting at the bus stop in Queensferry Street going to the schemes. how many times do you see a councillor on a bus?
what is a gas guzzler (another American import by silly people who have to import expressions from across the puddle. its like the stupid local authority schools in the UK that now want to have "proms". why not a school dance.
88

calum,

04/02/2009 16:23:50
Well all the life style police and the anti-car brigade are out in force, I see.
I work in a rural area, do emergency call outs and have a 4x4 in connection with that. I am an advanced driver and am able to handle this and other cars properly within the prevailing conditions, unlike most of the drivers who were overtaking on the A1 both yesterday and early today in snowy and icy conditions. I spend a lot of my leisure time in the country and have a caravan to do that, thus spending my leisure pound in the Scottish rural economy through tourism. I pay a premium on my road tax for the privilege for "pollution" but create no pollution whatever when parked. My car takes up no more road space than an average family car, say a Focus estate and now the City of Edinburgh Council is making a poorly judged additional cost for that as well.
So for all those who are making assumptions about 4x4 drivers, please judge everyone else by your own perfect standards.
89

Arrow,

edinburgh 04/02/2009 16:26:51
sorry. i meant to ask what figure of grammes of CO2 per kilometre makes a car a "gas guzzler"? does anyone know? do any of the anti-car brigade know/care?
90

Goat Boy,

04/02/2009 16:34:51
If you are affected by this pointless gesture, write to the Council and demand to see how they have come to this decision. Ask them to show you what it is they are hoping to achieve. Ask to see the calculations and ask why the person who drives from Edinburgh to Glasgow everyday is not being penalised.

This will solve nothing and it clearly illustrates that they haven't got a clue.




91

The Ayrshire Bard,

04/02/2009 16:54:08
Nobody seems to have picked up on the fact that this is a congestion charge, purely and simply. You may have thought you'd knocked that idea on the head but you've underestimated the wile and guile of your worthy cooncillors.
92

tumshie heid,

04/02/2009 17:00:53
Council in new ways to tax people shock. The best bit is they can claim its for the children,fluffy bunnies and the enviroment.
The fact that a stationary car causes no pollution at all has escaped them.It is a tax upon a tax, cars are already graded on their emissions when calculating ved.
Tony please walk out in front of one of the enviromentally friendly taxis and buses that you foolishly believe to be less polluting than private cars.
93

New Town Resident,

04/02/2009 17:07:45
#83. Mpjeasteroad

I was one of the 47 email responses.

Certainly most people in my area must have got the consultation as they came in the Post Office "junk mail" delivery.

Maybe the reason why nobody bothered to reply was because experience shows that whatever is consulted upon is always implemented exactly as "proposed"

They are just going through the motions to cover themselves.

By the way I fully support this change and said so.

The only reason I bothered to reply was that I wanted to comment as well - namely students in multiple occcupancy who don't pay council tax should pay 4 times the fee.

No joy of course.
94

Goat Boy,

04/02/2009 17:10:35
To put things into perspective, if I was to take the £7.68p from my son's piggy bank and pay it to the Government to help solve the global financial mess, it would be a token gesture and nothing else. This is exactly what this is, but it’s going to cost people money.

It’s a pointless exercise.
95

New Town Resident,

04/02/2009 17:15:03
~83.

By the way the reasons I support the tax are quite simple.

1. I pay to park my car outside my house.

2. I want to park my car outside my house

3. I don't like people with more than one car or huge 4x4s crowding me out. They can at least pay a premium for the privilege.

Most people I know in the New Town feel exactly the same way, and none of us drive "eco cars"

96

Euan,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 17:39:55
I can only see this tax as being unfair for those people who have already chosen to purchase a vehicle which will fall into the council's category of 'pollution'.

These articles ALWAYS seem to focus on vehicles like Range Rovers and 4X4s, but why should someone who has owns say a Porsche 911 or a Jaguar XKR suddenly have to pay more for their parking permit?

A lot of these vehicles will not be used anything like as much as someone coming into the city every day in a much smaller-engined vehicle and will very often be sitting stationary in the residents parking bay.

The smaller-engined cars used every day by commuters will put out FAR more CO2 than a stationary vehicle parked in town, regardless of size.

What is happening here is blatant political brownie point scoring by the council. They are hoodwinking themselves with all the 'greenwash' nonsense - and yet again, drivers are being kicked in the stones as a result.

This is yet more nonsense by muppet-head Phil Wheeler - 'With zero carbon emissions, the tram scheme will contribute to the reduction of CO2'

What is he on about??!!

The tram line(if and when it ever get's up and running), will be powered by electricity from COAL FIRED POWER STATIONS.

Hardly 'zero carbon emissions' there is it?

We really do have a bunch of chumps running things here don't we?









97

Corncerned,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 17:44:31
As someone with a high polluting car and parking permit I am not happy.

The government already have plans to increase road tax for high polluters now this.

The road tax plan was heavily critised as a retro tax which gave green taxs a bad name, even the green party agreed.

This is the same, I have already bought my car and thus what impact is this tax supposed to have?

The bigger question is where will the extra revenue go? As the council claims that the charge is to cover the administration of the parking zones must be called into question with this change.

I am also a scientist and I am not alone in thinking the CO2 emissions have not been proven to be responsible for global warming, something that could equally be explained by the sun spot cycle (google it) as we are currently at a peak of that cycle.
98

JFW,

New Town 04/02/2009 17:54:04
#38 - Russell339,

I was not suggesting that buses and taxis produce most of the c02 in the city but I am suggesting that they do produce far more than that produced by the small number of resident permit holders targeted by this stupid proposal who actually drive in the city centre. This is a complete waste of time. It will accomplish nothing other than a bit of greenwash PR. The stereotypical 4x4 brigade will not even blink at the extra charge, but the people with 3 or 4 kids and only enough money for an older less efficient people carrier probably will. How can this help reduce pollution when it does nothing to discourage people from driving. So what if someone only owns a small car; if the person who owns it is lazy enough to use it constantly it'll produce a hell of a lot more c02 than someone who owns a big car and only uses it at weekends, not to mention how different folks driving styles also affect c02 output dramatically.
If anyone really wants to reduce emissions in the city centre then we need clean buses and taxis (The London style cabs produce as much c02 and particulates as the biggest and most ridicluous 4x4's and they're all over the place with their engines running constantly - why are they not being targeted) and we need to stop encouraging everyone to drive into the city, which is exactly what is being done with emphasis on increasing parking provision. It's funny how we get all day congestion in the city on Sun when a lot of the parking restrictions are lifted and everyone and their mother drives in.
On top of that why should this be introduced on cars people currently own - it would be more acceptable if applied to cars bought after the new rules come into being. I've just bought a family car that is a medium c02 producer (<175) but in a few years that'll probably be high compared to new clean cars and I don't want to think that the council can start charging me a lot more then just because they feel like moving the goalposts for no good r
99

Euan,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 17:54:32
#106

It should simply not be the council or anyone else's right to try and influence what vehicle a person chooses to buy.

What the council are doing is disgraceful.

The question isn't where will all the extra revenue go; they're losing £50k by introducing these silly measures.

The question is, where are they going to find this lost revenue?

Not only this, but the council are potentially going to lose several million in lost parking revenue due to the tram works bringing the city centre to an absolute standstill over the next 8-12 months.

They're tiny brains are going to be in overdrive in trying to think of plans to recoup these funds.

Increase in parking charges?, more CPZs?

God knows, but whatever happens, for Edinburgh's motorists this is nothing more than a continuation of daylight robbery by a greenwashed council.
100

The real dracula,

04/02/2009 18:24:18
I dont see how its anyone elses business who drives what and who parks where.
The anti car brigade can continue their venomous diatribe against drivers all they want , most drivers wont listen.
Its called freedom ,it still exists in this country and until it does we will continue to do what we want, when we want, within the constraints of the law.

If a car is taxed , mot'd and legal then we have a right to drive it.

I have driven for years and will continue to do so without a hint of guilt or remorse. My car is legal paid for and I have never caused an accident , yet.

So anti car folks , shut it !!!!
101

Incandescent,

04/02/2009 18:33:17
#110 Indeed.
102

Euan,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 18:37:36
#110

Well said.

If I choose to import say a 5.4 litre Ford F150 truck from the USA and make sure it's properly maintained, taxed, and insured, then I have the right to drive it or park it anywhere I want for the same price as someone driving a 1.1 litre Ford Fiesta.

I would be paying for the insurance, fuel and all servicing and other related costs, all of which contribute to Mr Darling's annual budget. I may also only choose to drive this vehicle less than 5000 miles per annum or 50,000 per annum.

Put simply, IT IS NO-ONE ELSE'S BUSINESS WHICH CAR I OWN OR HOW I DRIVE IT.

To be penalized for owning a car with a big engine is utterly disgraceful.
103

Goat Boy,

04/02/2009 19:02:37
JFW - Spot on mate. Now try asking the council why has there been an Air Quality Management Area in Edinburgh for 7 years?

And what are they doing about it?
104

Mike F,

edinburgh 04/02/2009 19:05:33
Hey Euan
Climate Change is everyone's business.
105

Euan,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 19:16:01
#114

Not mine Mike, not mine.

The whole thing is a scam designed to fleece all of us in developed countries of even more of our hard earned cash.

This parking permit nonsense from the council is a classic example of this.
106

The real dracula,

04/02/2009 19:17:45
#114 climate change is everyines business.

So are we to understand that you never use any motorised transport ??

You dont go on holiday , no flights etc.

You dont eat food that has been delivered to a store bymotorised transport??

If so you are as guilty as the rest of us.

We each in our own way contibute to global warming and so do you.
107

GJS,

04/02/2009 19:52:32
In my experience anti-car folks spout their nonsense simply because they're too lazy, disorganised or poor to get a driving licence like normal people do. That said, when you offer them a lift they don't seem to be too anti-car. Although the ones who won't learn to drive because they're too disorganised don't seem to mind making you wait for them.
108

krusty the klown,

04/02/2009 21:09:16
He He! #117 'get a driving licence like normal people do' - imbecile. 'Normal' people have actualy realised that cars are a total waste of time and money, especially in small, condensed cities like Edinburgh
109

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 04/02/2009 21:34:03
BORN.FREE.TAXED.TO.DEATH.IN.EDINBURGH
110

kaputnik,

bruntsfield 04/02/2009 22:02:31
How daft to base parking charges on something that parked cars don't do - i.e. cause emissions! How about something eminently sensible like making the cost of the permit proportional to the length and breadth of your car. That way we do not pay the same for our wee Citroen Saxo as the Chelsea Tractor set who insist on trying to cram their aircraft carriers and ocean liners into bays that would fit 2 or 3 regular sized cars.

Price them out for being too big and taking up too much space for a cramped, city-centre residential street, rather than this headline grabbing charade masquerading as a green agenda.
111

tumshie heid,

04/02/2009 22:03:30
Mike F opinions like yours are why councils can get away with implementing any tax they like as long as they mention green or enviroment somewhere.
How many 4x4's were there buzzing around when the ice age melted?
Perhaps we are experiencing a cyclical change in weather patterns and global warming is just a great way of taxing people?
112

Decent,

04/02/2009 22:21:30
Badass - I drive an Audi! And I don't have a small d**k
113

Choose a nameDr_Joseph_Phd,

Tynescos 04/02/2009 23:18:15
I do hope the 4x4 in the pic received a fine for parking outside the permitted area.
114

Living in Fear ,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 23:28:11
If the Council really want to reduce Co2 in the city Let the car run instead of siting in jams caused by Road works everywhere

Co2 caused by thousands of car running Idle engines there fault not ours let them pay

I have a 1.4 renault scenic 04 plate and pay full road tax Why!!!

Why is it easier to get into this horrible City in rush hour rather than get across it during the same time scale

If the council fathers want less cars in the city install toll gates before they get in or dont make it so easy to get in to the city in the first place and hard to cross it

I want to put a Bill for wasted fuel to be pay back into my pocket simple because they make me waste so much over the last 2-3 years
115

Rob M,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 23:37:00
The article states: Vauxhall Vectra would see a fall, while there would be no change for drivers of bigger models, such as Saabs and Volkswagen Passats.

This is misleading, it depends on the engine, vehicle owners will pay less if the CO2 emissions is less than 186 g/km and pay more if if it is more than 225 g/km.

Thus it is possible for owners of Vauxhall Vectra, Saabs and Volkswagen Passats to pay more.

116

krusty the klown,

04/02/2009 23:47:25
#123 an AUDI?????? OMG YOUR DI@K MUST BE HUGE!
Or, as you have clearly indicated, you are actually a di@khead - and sit in your mum's micra on saturday night with a Will Young CD on and then get the tweezers and magnifier out
117

Julian.,

edinburgh 05/02/2009 00:28:03
Euan,

How does introducing a measure which will lose the council £50,000 come under the category of fleecing the public?

I do agree with you though. If I was in charge I would scrap road tax and heavily increase petrol duty. And as someone else said, permits should be related to the physical size of your car?

Incidentally, you forgot to say:-
SCRAP THE TRAMS!!!!!
118

Professor22,

lochgelly 05/02/2009 06:40:20
~106 No we are not at the height of the sun spot cycle, we are only emerging from the low dip. Another 4/5 years to go for the peak. Roll on good HF conditions.

Everyone else that hate 4*4s....GET A LIFE....I own two and drive them into Edinburgh and pay £10 for parking daily. I use it for my huskies, for offroad use, for ferrying motocross bikes, for pulling a caravan, for taking my rubbish to the tip (since Fife decided on a two week pick up) and for voluntary civil contingency service. I stay in one of the highest towns in Fife that regulary suffers from being snowed in.

I agree that owners of Q7s, X5s and Range Rover Vogues should be shot at dawn for giving the rest of us a bad name.

If 4*4s are sooooooooo bad then why are most of them in the same tax bracket as the ford mondeo?????

Do you have a miserable life? Do you feel the need to criticise others for their life choices but suffer from broken glass windows syndrome?? Do you really wish you afford something more than a skoda? Then get a life....free with every copy of the jobseekers weekly.
119

Foo,

05/02/2009 09:11:42
123 - Decent: Perhaps you're the exception that proves the rule?

127 krusty the klown - Calm down, calm down, sounds like you've a little inferiority complex there buddy.
120

Afromonkey,

G.L.A.N.D.S.V.I.L.L.E. 05/02/2009 11:00:06
COLINTON.MAINS, Oakville Ontario
WHY.DO.YOUR.POSTS.ALWAYS.LOOK.LIKE.DICK.ENLARGEMENT.SPAMS?
121

kieran.....,

la habana 05/02/2009 23:10:38
More rules for all the sheep...the scots really like getting up the ole dirt road.....
122

There Must Be A Better Way...,

E/burgh 06/02/2009 14:51:43
Late to the discussion...

I drive a medium size 4x4. I don't use it to commute to work (I work from home), and I have a bicycle for transport about the city when possible. I use my vehicle for my legitimate weekend leisure pursuits and other driving. I do a very low millage per year.

It is utterly unfair to add further taxes onto me simply because of my vehicle type. This proposal smacks of jealousy any hypocrisy.

Further, it is totally unnecessary added bureaucracy, creating more pen pushers in the cooncil measuring each others tailpipes (ooo eer!)

I would advise everyone to look at some stats at http://www.4x4prejudice.org/ , for example, the Environmental Comparison of Modern Vehicles:

Vehicle MPG CO2 per Km
Audi A3 2.0 Tdi 51.4 149
Ford Galaxy 1.9 Tdi LX 42.8 178
Toyota Corolla 1.6 VVT-I T3 40.4 168
Toyota Rav4 2.0 D-4D XT2 39.8 206
Nissan X-trail 2.2 dci 136 Se 39.2 190
Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 Crtd Gsi 37.2 202
Land Rover Freelander 2.0 Td4 37.2 205
Renault Espace2.2dci Priviledge 36.7 206
Peugeot 307 2.0 16v Xsi 35.8 188
Mini one 1.6 Cooper S 3dr 33.6 202
Ford Focus 2.0i Zetec 33.1 207
BMW X5 3.0d Sport 4x4 32.8 229
Jeep Cherokee 2.5 CRD Ltd 31.4 250
BMW Z4 3.0i SE 31 221
Audi A4 1.8T Quattro 30.1 226
Land Rover Discovery TD5 30.1 262
Chrysler Grand Voyager 2.8 crd 29.4 0
Porshe Boxter 2.7 29.1 233
Ford Mondeo 3.0 Ghia X 27.4 247
Jaguar XJ8 4.2 SE Auto 26 264
Subaru Impreza 2.0 WRX Sti 25.4 265
Lexus GS300 Se Auto 4dr 24.3 281
Rolls Royce Phantom 6.75 20 385

And Vehicle Dimensions, sorted by length, longest first:

Vehicle Length (cm) Width (cm)
Chrysler Grand Voyager 2.8 crd 509 200
Jaguar XJ8 4.2 SE Auto 509 186
Lexus GS300 Se Auto 4dr 480 175
Saab 9-52.0T Vector 480 204
Rover 75 1.8T connoiseur 474 196
Volvo V70 2.4S Estate 471 180
Land Rover Discovery TD5 470 189
BMW X5 3.0d Sport 4x4 467 218
Renault Espace2.2dci Priviledge 466 186
Ford Gal
123

There Must Be A Better Way...,

06/02/2009 14:52:56
Ford Galaxy 1.9 Tdi LX 464 181
Toyota Rav4 2.0 D-4D XT2 463 176
Audi A4 1.8T Quattro 455 177
Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 Crtd Gsi 450 173
Jeep Cherokee 2.5 CRD Ltd 450 182
Nissan X-trail 2.2 dci 136 Se 445 177
Land Rover Freelander 2.0 Td4 442 181
Porshe Boxter 2.7 431 178
Audi A3 2.0 Tdi 420 177
Ford Focus 2.0i Zetec 415 170
BMW Z4 3.0i SE 409 178
Mini one 1.6 Cooper S 3dr 363 169

Clearly, everyone fretting about "4x4s" have nothing else wrong in their lives to worry about, and like making up needless rules for their own egotistical satisfaction or envy driven ends.
124

Richard Lionheart,

17/02/2009 23:47:37
Just wait till they start charging farmers for having grazing cows! Enjoy your beef while you can.
125

muppetspotter,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 14:27:00
As someone who has just shelled out £400 to repair front suspension damaged by the deplorable state of edinburgh's roads - even more lethal to cyclists btw. I would sympathise with anyone who wants to drive a 4x4 in our city where the road surface is probably the worst in the UK. If the council are going to enforce this then can we have a gaurantee that the money raised will be spent on improving our road surfaces rather than on microphones or new pot plants for their lounge?
126

krusty the klown,

26/02/2009 20:40:40
What I find bizarre is seeing 4x4s slow down and literally crawl over speed bumps way below the local speed limit.....
127

KWC,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 22:36:28
Why all the debate? This is simply one of the hundreds of schemes that will be invented to tax the public for their very existence.

Expect more, many more, such schemes.

 

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